Escaping the 9-to-5: How Digital Nomads Actually Make It Work

Dustin Grinnell (00:00:00 --> 00:00:03)
I'm Dustin Grinnell, and this is Curiously.

Dustin Grinnell (00:00:06 --> 00:00:59)
Have you ever dreamed of ditching the office and working from a beach in Bali or a cafe in Barcelona? In this episode, I sit down with travel writer and seasoned digital nomad Nathan James Thomas to talk about his 2023 book Untethered: Living the Digital Nomad Life in an Uncertain World. Nathan shares what it takes to break free from the 9-to-5 and build a sustainable, location-independent career. With After a decade of experience bouncing between continents and running the digital travel magazine Intrepid Times, Nathan knows firsthand that being a digital nomad isn't just about sipping coconuts on the beach. It's about adaptability, resilience, and finding meaningful work that supports your lifestyle.

Whether you're already on the road or just daydreaming about it, this episode is your roadmap to making the leap. I hope you enjoy this no-nonsense look at what it really means to be untethered.

Dustin Grinnell (00:01:02 --> 00:01:05)
So Nathan James Thomas, welcome to the podcast.

Nathan James Thomas (00:01:05 --> 00:01:07)
Thanks, Dustin. It's a real pleasure to be here.

Dustin Grinnell (00:01:08 --> 00:02:02)
So thanks for coming on to talk about being a digital nomad. I read your most recent book called Untethered: Living the Digital Nomad Life in an Uncertain World. I really enjoyed it, especially since so much of the talk about being a digital nomad is kind of like exploring like the fantasy of it, like sitting on a white sandy beach and typing on your laptop, which is unrealistic. And, and what your book explores is kind of like the reality of being a digital nomad and the hows. And so I really appreciated that. So I thought before we unpack some of the lessons you have learned as being a digital nomad and a world traveler, why don't we just establish some key terms? Like, how do you define what being a digital nomad is, and, you know, what does that mean to you?

Nathan James Thomas (00:02:02 --> 00:02:53)
Thanks. That's a really great question, actually. And I don't actually think I spent a lot of time in the book really nailing down a definition, though I did paint a bit of a picture. It's not a term that I particularly like, but it is one that's very familiar. I think the reason why I don't like it is because of the knee-jerk associations. It's that 21-year-old on a beach in Bali somewhere working on their tech startup or cryptocurrency business. It's— it implies kind of a certain mentality that I don't think a lot of people who are really into travel resonate with, and I didn't either. So what I would say though, more simply, is that a digital nomad is someone who can do their work regardless of location and makes use of that to travel and live in different countries to the one that they were born into.

Dustin Grinnell (00:02:53 --> 00:03:07)
And you've been living this dynamic for quite a bit of time. Could you just describe how you've been doing it? You're doing it now, you're living and working in Poland, and talk just briefly about your experience with being a digital nomad.

Nathan James Thomas (00:03:08 --> 00:05:40)
I kind of fell into that world in the right time, kind of the early 2007, 2008 when it was quite easy to start a blog and build an audience and sell eBooks or something. And I knew that world a little bit and had some experience there. So I was able to save up some money when I was in college, university as we call it in New Zealand, and just sort of went off like a bullet from the gun. I was in China for a while. When the money ran out, I kind of had to figure out what can I do.

And I was always passionate about writing and I knew a little bit about selling stuff online. So I fused those two together and became a copywriter. And clients, the first client was the hardest one to get. And then once you have one, they sort of refer you and builds up. So I traveled as a copywriter, able to make money anywhere for a long time.

And gradually I grew and had a bit more kind of quote-unquote serious roles in businesses, because when you're doing copywriting, you relate to strategy. And I pivoted to travel writing because that was always my real passion, and had years when that was my main bread and butter, and sort of danced between various ways of using words and storytelling. To make a living, whether as a travel writer, copywriter, or a manager of teams doing that. But where I was geographically and the work that I was doing were almost never connected. Occasionally there are advantages, and I speak about it in Untethered, when you find yourself somewhere and you get out there and network and you can meet clients or people that you can work with through doing that.

Dustin Grinnell (00:05:40 --> 00:06:26)
And as any traveler knows, one of the great joys is the serendipity that happens while you're on the road. You meet someone, they lead you to somewhere that you didn't plan. You strike up a conversation with someone and they introduce you to an activity that you hadn't heard about, and it turns out to be a great experience and you hadn't even planned on it. From your book, you talked about getting your first client actually as a digital nomad, and I guess it was in a bar, and you weren't working at the time, weren't doing anything, weren't planning on finding a job, and yet someone, uh, was working on a project and they just asked you to take a look at it and that kind of started a remote work job, which then led to like actually going into the office.

Nathan James Thomas (00:06:26 --> 00:06:37)
Yeah, that was one of those wonderful serendipitous experiences. Yeah, so I was in a bar, actually in this very city where I am now, but many, many years ago when I was just getting to know the place.

Dustin Grinnell (00:06:37 --> 00:06:37)
That's in Poland?

Nathan James Thomas (00:06:37 --> 00:08:59)
I didn't get to meet her, though. Maybe next time. She must have lost my number. I don't know what happened. But yeah, I was in a bar here.

It was more than 10 years ago, a good decade-plus ago. And over that time, not only have I grown older and more boring, but Poznań has become a lot more international. Poland has grown a lot wealthier and a lot more international over that last 10 years. So 10 years ago, Being a native English speaker from New Zealand in Poznań, in kind of a second-tier Polish city, not Warsaw or Kraków, was quite an exotic thing. And I was in just a small bar with my girlfriend at the time and speaking in English, and that attracted attention.

And there was a dude and his friend working on a laptop, and they came over, introduced themselves. Oh, you're— where are you from? You're a native English speaker? Hey, we're working on this article. In English, can you come help us out?

We'll buy you a beer. Why not? I mean, it's by coincidence also happened to be something that I did, like writing. And I went over and at that very moment, the guy said, hey, I have a company, it was a software company, very small. Do you want a job?

And that ended up leading to one of those classic kind of like content farms, content marketing gigs. But it was a, which I did this for a few months, but it was a very interesting exposure to the extremely commercial side of content copywriting, how that work was being done in Eastern Europe and the work culture there, very different from the US in some ways that are very good, in some ways that are perhaps less good. And yeah, an example of what you say, that, that serendipity when you're just out there in the world and you kind of know you have some kind of point of difference, maybe it's just you're far away from where you're from. You have a skill that maybe at home is passé but overseas suddenly becomes very valuable. And things happen.

Dustin Grinnell (00:08:59 --> 00:09:27)
And, um, you're originally from New Zealand? Yeah. Yeah, I actually studied abroad there and Christchurch. I spent 6 months on the South Island and traveled all around there. It's an absolutely gorgeous, gorgeous place. You talked a little bit in your book about how your upbringing in New Zealand and the gap year you had in Australia before university influenced your journey as a traveler, um, and storyteller. Can you talk about that gap year and how influential that was?

Nathan James Thomas (00:09:27 --> 00:11:00)
It's, it's classic for a New Zealander and Australian to, to take a year off between high school and university and go to Europe or somewhere for a year. And often you'll, you'll get a job in a school or something, and you'll go backpacking in between times. I had this online work that I was doing, so I was able to self-fund myself just essentially backpacking around for a year. And the first and most intense phase of that was in Australia. So I was still 17 because just when my birthday is, I happened to be 17 when I finished high school.

And I bought, uh, like the US, Australia has the Greyhound bus networks, long-distance buses between cities. And Australia has about 5 big cities, and in between those it's desert. It's just, it's one of the most urbanized countries in the world. Like, something like 95% of the population lives in these 5 cities, and the rest of it, there are small weird towns and desert as far as the eye can see and animals that want to kill you. And I rode the buses between these little towns, and it was, it was scary and fun.

Dustin Grinnell (00:11:00 --> 00:11:01)
You—

Nathan James Thomas (00:11:01 --> 00:11:23)
I never felt so alive, and I was often quite scared. I don't think I was ever really in danger, but I was often— I was far from my comfort zone and, and very nervous. And then after that, I went on to Europe, which, which was a lot of fun, and it was kind of— you were just in that backpacker trail full of Aussies and Kiwis. But that bit in Australia, that was That was quite something.

Dustin Grinnell (00:11:23 --> 00:11:48)
And for your book, you, you not only wrote about your travels and what it's like to work remotely and live the life of a digital nomad, you, you profiled people. You profiled like a diverse group of other people who were digital nomads. And I was wondering, was there a story or one of these individuals that maybe resonated with you the most, someone who sticks in your mind?

Nathan James Thomas (00:11:49 --> 00:13:55)
So, so one person who comes comes to mind, um, somewhat randomly, is, is Kathy Raymond. Why I'm highlighting her is because she's someone who is a, you know, a proper adult, not, not in her 20s. She has a few decades of work experience. She's, uh, she was in her mid-50s when she was interviewed for the book. She's married with kids.

And also the countries that she's lived and worked in— it's not your Indonesia, you know, your Bali or Thailand. She's been in In addition to Germany, Nepal, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Russia. So, so countries that are really quite perhaps challenging from a, from a Western perspective. She's an English teaching professional, so I suppose there is debate to be had whether being an English teacher qualifies as digital nomad. I would say if we're being pure, it would if you're doing it online, because you can teach, you can be in Uzbekistan and teaching kids in China English, which is something that I know some people do, but It's also the kind of job that you can take on the road with you.

Dustin Grinnell (00:13:55 --> 00:14:24)
Yeah, I like how just a theme in the book is focusing on the reality of actually trying to pull this off in real concrete terms. If you're, if you're living this dynamic, you have to make money and you have to be doing a a certain type of work. You have in the book common ways freelancers earn money while traveling. Uh, I think there were 5 most common ways. Can you kind of sketch out, generally speaking, what are these digital nomads doing?

Nathan James Thomas (00:14:24 --> 00:17:31)
So in super simple terms, digital nomads are performing a service— normally it's a business service— online. And that means that you can do it from anywhere. You can be in Bali or you can be in your home country. It doesn't matter to your clients because you're doing it online. Now, what are those services?

What are people out there actually doing? Yes, we have entrepreneurs and I interviewed a few and these are people who have their own businesses. Normally they are online businesses, of course. So that's an e-commerce store. You're selling shoes or widgets or what have you.

But a lot of people are performing services to clients and that's a much lower barrier to entry because starting a business requires a lot of talent and luck and risk tolerance. And for, for normal people, it's much more— the chances of success are higher simply going for that freelancer route. So then the question is, what skill are you offering and to whom? And this goes back to your own talents and personality a little bit. So it's in my pathway that I used to be doing in my earlier days as a copywriter.

That's a fairly common approach. Uh, I would say that myth-busting there is that just simply because you are a native English speaker doesn't mean that you're qualified to be a copywriter. It helps to have an edge. So my edge was that I understood this world of online internet marketing so I could write in a way that would encourage people to buy things. And therefore, if someone was one of these entrepreneurs I spoke about who had an e-commerce website or an online education platform community, which was an area I started to specialize in, I could help them sell their next product or sell more of their current product.

So you have your value proposition, how you can make their business or their life better. And it's really important to understand how the skill that you have improves the lives or businesses of the people that you work for. So it's not just thinking about yourself, but it's thinking about the kind of people that you would be able to help. But that's not the only, like copywriting is not the only thing that can be done. A lot of people are personal assistants.

That might sound like something that would be done by someone in a less expensive country like Indonesia or the Philippines. And it can be, but if you are really onto it, highly organized person, and you have a client who values someone who is say a native English speaker, a confident and skilled communicator, and someone who can be their off-sider, can represent them to clients, can schedule meetings, can solve problems and triage and prioritize, you can have this job for someone who's highly successful and the amount that they pay you will feel like nothing to them, but will allow you to live and travel the world for as much as you want to do. Customer service is another one where these are areas in which there are low barrier entry jobs that can be done in the space. But if you find people who really understand the value of these jobs being done skillfully, and certain businesses do, they'll be willing to hire smarter people and they don't mind where they are. And your communication skills or your organization skills would be your real point of difference there.

Dustin Grinnell (00:17:32 --> 00:18:01)
So what qualities or characteristics do you think are kind of essential for making digital nomadism work? Like, in your book, you talked about, you know, being organized, being flexible, obviously passionate about travel, and you even said, uh, you know, a little bit nuts, you know, to do this. So I wonder if you can elaborate, maybe from the profiles, maybe from your own experience, like, what does it take to really thrive a digital nomad?

Nathan James Thomas (00:18:02 --> 00:21:23)
But the fact is, you're gonna have to be the one who takes the hit on time zones, right? Because you're the one who's chosen to be somewhere weird. So often I've been working for clients in Europe or the US or the UK, and I've been— say I was in I was working in Vietnam a couple of years ago for a couple of months, and my main client at the time was in Spain, and therefore I was often on calls until well after midnight. And that's just how it goes. You're the one who takes that hit.

So that can cause you to live a bit of a weird life and means you're the one who has to constantly be doing the, the time zone mental calculations. That's one. And another is that there, there can be I feel it less now, but to some extent at this current moment, which is a little bit different than when the book came out a year or two ago, but this dynamic changes quite a lot. Digital nomadism and remote work are kind of connected in a way, right? Because if you're working remotely, then it doesn't really matter where you are.

And there's a real push at the moment against remote work, especially from your Elon Musks of the world. And therefore And this is a good skill to have anyway, but therefore it really does help to be able to articulate your value. So if you're working in a permanent basis for a client, say you have a remote job or you're working as a contractor, you have a long-term relationship, being able to articulate your wins, like keep a spreadsheet with the achievements you have or notice the stats on the, if you're an email copywriter or a customer service person or you're someone who helps people stay on top of their own appointments, be able to articulate your value. And if it's challenged, like, hey, you know, everyone else comes to the office, but you're over there serving cocktails in Bali, what gives you the right to do that? Well, I think the point is that I have achieved XXX and Y, and it doesn't matter where I am.

People will— I find there are still many people who really get that and just don't care. So that really helps too. And yeah, the other thing is that travel is As you know well, travel can be really hard. Sometimes it's cocktails on the beach, but sometimes it's crap Wi-Fi and visas running out, and you don't speak the language, and you're trying to figure out how to get from A to B. And the full-time experience of just navigating this completely unfamiliar world where you are as clueless as a child is exhausting.

Dustin Grinnell (00:21:23 --> 00:21:58)
Yeah, one of the nomads that, uh, you profiled emphasized the importance of having like a self-imposed morning routine. They met, they woke up, they meditated, they exercised, and then they got to work. And I'm sure you have your own daily routines as well. I'm wondering if you could speak on the importance of these self-imposed routines and what value they provide, especially in a foreign country or while on the move. And then also, you know, what are some of the most effective routines you've— you would give to people looking to live this life?

Nathan James Thomas (00:21:58 --> 00:24:21)
For me personally, I've actually never been much of a routine person. I feel— I suppose I have certain patterns, some of which are conscious, some of which aren't. And there are certain habits or ways of doing things over and over again consistently that, that I've worked in. But there are— yeah, there are folks I interviewed for my book, and it works miracle for some people if For example, you say, no matter where I am, I'm going to wake up at 7:00 AM in the local time. And before I look at my phone and check my emails, I'm going to go for a half an hour walk around the Airbnb and check out the sites.

And then I'm going to do 2 hours work and then I'm done. Then I have 3 hours sightseeing and then I'm back on work until the evening. That really works for, for some people. For me, it's a bit different. Normally when I wake up, I have this kind of overwhelming urge to just dive into the noise and chaos, that quote, telegrams in anger, all of the nonsense that's acquired from different time zones overnight, and then hopefully deal with that for the first couple of hours and then get my more creative fun work done in the afternoon.

Sometimes it goes a bit like that. I'm not sure if they count as routines, but certain things that I've imposed are really to try and have the workspace different from the sleeping space. And if you're in a tiny hotel room, it's not always possible, but if you can take your laptop out to a cafe somewhere, or if you get a WeWork for the day, or a hot desk, or, or find some co-working, that's really psychologically helpful, especially if work is stressful. Yeah, and try— for my case, always try and like check in with the day early from a stable internet connection, and then throw yourself in the chaos of the city, maybe with your laptop in a in your satchel for the more creative work later on in the, in the afternoon. But everyone's really different, and it takes a lot of experimenting to find what works for you.

Dustin Grinnell (00:24:22 --> 00:24:56)
Yeah, so let's talk about like getting clients. In order to make money, expand your, your business, you need to find clients, keep clients, get more clients. And you talk about the importance of personal branding and how digital nomads can create a strong brand in order to attract clients. But then also you talk about the value of finding a niche. So talk a little bit about how you, you actually get clients and the importance of branding and the importance of finding a niche.

Nathan James Thomas (00:24:57 --> 00:31:58)
So let's say copywriting, right? So I've branded myself a lot as a, in the early days as a copywriter for education products. It's still something that I dabble in, which is a really fun area in which to work because you can do a lot of creativity and the results that you can help your clients get is really tangible. So it gives you a lot of really good material. That's kind of good.

Copywriter for educators, you know what service you're offering and to whom, and you're a little bit specialized and you know that world a little bit. If it was, say, copywriters for educators, for yoga teachers, that might be the right amount of specialization. If there's a lot of yoga teachers out there, maybe it's too specialized because you're precluding yourself. Or do you also work for meditation teachers or, or something? But perhaps copywriter for self-help educators could be a good specialization because it implies a familiarity with the landscape without being so specific that you're excluding a lot of really potential offers.

So having a niche helps you laser down your focus when you're choosing who to reach out to, and it also helps send a signal that you know what you're doing in the specific area to other people. So casting your mind on your own experience, what you have exposure to in your life, you have your skill and you have your sort of generalized knowledge. So I had my skill writing, I had my background in internet marketing. So that was, you know, copywriter for folks selling things and adding the education specialist. Let's say that you are someone who's really, really highly organized and you are really good with data.

Maybe this is something that you do in your day job. So then you could work, say you're an executive assistant for complex systems, or you're someone who can absolutely master any spreadsheet that you have. And you can say that you're someone who is a just spibbling off the top of my head, but working with organizations over 5,000 people at the executive level to streamline operations, or you're someone who takes small businesses that are 10 to 20 people strong and invents the systems from scratch to make people's lives easier. It's just understanding a little bit more about the kind of person who should hire you because this helps them, but this also helps you as well. For me personally, I've found it much easier to work with reasonably small companies.

So sometimes it's one-person entrepreneurship, sometimes it's companies up to a couple of hundred people. There are plenty of digital nomads and freelancers who do really well working with big corporations, and once you're in that world, they kind of follow each other. That hasn't been my path. I really like it if I can go direct to the top-level person, which is much easier, of course, at a small organization, and then you can just have a more sort of human relationship. You can chat, you can develop a rapport.

They can accept you as a little bit weird and quirky and your own value, which can maybe not be quantified in a super linear way, because often if you're a copywriter, you're also more of an advisor because you're the person understanding how to articulate what they do. But let's say now that you've decided what value you're offering to who, which is the most important part, your brand, LinkedIn is really helpful. It really is worth the time, put in a good LinkedIn profile. I've had a lot of clients over the years come to me through LinkedIn. Definitely recommend spending the effort writing a good bio, putting those keywords in there, finding a few people in your space who are where you want to be and taking inspiration from how they structure their bio and putting things together in that way.

Having a personal website can help. People kind of think, oh, they just should have a website because it's something you should have. Your website's not really going to do anything. I mean, no one's going to come to it by magic unless you really spend a lot of time putting good content on there. But that's a long game.

It can take years. So the point of a website is probably more like a portfolio piece if you're a creative, or just a simple contact information page. But your LinkedIn page can serve as that. So as a creative, it's very helpful to have portfolios. Even if you're not a creative, having testimonials or case studies or even say you're doing a kind of work that you can't just go and write a blog post, your work requires systems, you can write what you would do.

So if I were the systems organizer for Boeing, here are the 10 steps that I would do. Or if I was the executive assistant for a company that does this, here are some things that I would do. And this could be an example of a portfolio piece you could put on that just proves that you have the right kind of thinking in that space and you get things done and you can send it to someone as a as a bit of a case study. And then you can just start reaching out to the right people. So do some research, understand companies that you like, people in that space that you like.

You can ask for referrals. People don't do this, but if you know someone who is in a similar space, like, hey, you, you have a friend who is in the online education world and you can just write to them on LinkedIn from your amazing LinkedIn page. 'Cause you've got this amazing job with so-and-so. I am a copywriter who specializes in helping companies like Thing. Do you happen to know anyone in the space who could need help with that?

I've had people approach me like that, and if it's done well and politely and sincerely, I'm happy to help. And it actually has led to work for folks that I know. So not expecting things to happen by magic, but putting yourself out there. And then networking in person has helped me a lot too. When you travel, there are digital nomad communities in most major cities, and they tend to be quite often freelancers themselves or entrepreneurial types, and they will often have leads.

I've gotten work through that too, and a lot of the best clients I have have come through weird serendipitous things like the experience I talked about in a bar, or one of the companies that I've worked for for many years, which is one of the positions that I'm most passionate about, which is an incredible watch brand called Traska, and I help them with creativity and communication. That was because the founder of that company happened to be the roommate of a friend of mine who I went to visit in Guangzhou, China, like 10 years ago. But it's because he thought at one point, I need someone to help me tell this travel story about someone who has one of the watches. Who do I know who's a travel writer? Oh, Nathan.

So I was known for a specific thing, and therefore having a thing that you're known about, that branding, is really key.

Dustin Grinnell (00:32:03 --> 00:32:54)
What other advice do you have in the space of pitching and positioning yourself effectively in the marketplace? You, you know, you talked about having that brand and making it very clear, talked about having that niche, talked about just being like known for a certain sector or area. But, uh, you know, the rubber always meets the road with that, like, pitch letter to someone, like a query. It can be cold too, you know, I'm just— I'm reaching out. Or you can reach out via messages on LinkedIn, or even maybe you get into the meeting with someone and you're having to sell yourself to this person. What are some of the things you would say to someone starting out? Like, here's an effective way to pitch and an effective way to position yourself.

Nathan James Thomas (00:32:54 --> 00:35:57)
So when you're reaching out to someone, think about the benefit that they're gonna get. So the specific problem that you're gonna solve for them. Low sales, copywriter. Wasting time between meetings, organization. Out of date branding on the website, graphic design.

And express that obviously in a, in a polite way and a, in a positive manner. But having that absolute clarity like this is this is what I'll do for you and this is why it matters, super helpful and being really, really confident in that. At the same time, especially with the first outreach, being a little bit humble, a little bit human, actually these little cues and there is some evidence here that crops up every now and then that some of these things that people coach you not to say, I'm just asking, I would just like to know, you've read LinkedIn post after LinkedIn post saying don't do that, sound confident, but actually sounding a little bit human and humble is kind of okay. It's a polite signal. It makes you seem relatable.

Just wondering if— people tell you don't say stuff like that, but it can actually be really effective. So that you have this nice combination then of being subtle. You're not demanding something, but you're offering it in case they want it. So, hey, Jim, really big fan of brand. I noticed that you have launched X, Y, and Z product.

'Absolutely amazing. I have done similar work in your space, including X result, Y result, wondering if for your next we could team up and achieve even greater things together.' So what's in this kind of random example? Well, the most important thing I think I want to highlight is that the first part of your outreach isn't about you, it's about them. So instead of sending an email to someone saying, 'Hey, I am blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,' you'd say, 'Hey, I noticed you X, Y, and Z, and that immediately means that you have, you're not sending this template letter out to 8,000 people. You kind of know what you're talking about.

You've bothered to get to know them and their business. And that immediately sets you apart from other people and that what you're offering is a good fit for them. And I receive a lot of pitches now and these ones work really well and you can get creative with it. So for example, I got a pitch last year, I think from someone who had taken the time to record a Loom, L-O-O-M, the free screen recording video software of a website site that I was involved in running and pointing out specific things that could be improved. And probably only took them 2 minutes.

We didn't end up hiring that person, but definitely we considered it. And just little things like that, that are personalized and that show, demonstrate the value you can offer. So choose carefully, really personalize your approach, that balance between being confident in the value you can offer, but kind of humble and not presumptuous in your approach, and being willing to do this a lot. I It takes you 20 minutes to send a good pitch. Spend an hour doing it every day until you have 5 clients for a month before you go traveling, and then you might be in a good position.

Dustin Grinnell (00:35:58 --> 00:36:25)
How much is, you know, being successful as a digital nomad just good old-fashioned professionalism? It's like, yeah, be clear in your communications, be on time, don't miss deadlines. Overdeliver, um, you know, show up when you're supposed to show up, and, uh, you know, follow the direction, and just be someone who's polite and considerate to work with, you know. Just be a professional.

Nathan James Thomas (00:36:25 --> 00:37:31)
Yeah, I mean, not to sound too much like a boomer, but, you know, people don't show up on time anymore these days. But there is— yeah, absolutely. And now I found that— so with my, my travel publication that I run, I deal with a lot of people who are much more nomadic and intrepid than I ever was, and, and I found that it's rare. I have these writers who, you know, they disappear into South America and they emerge with these incredible stories, but they promise me a column of weekly stories and then you don't hear from them for 6 months. And that's like, I could love your work, but if we want a professional partnership, you need to be more reliable. And if you can be a nomad and travel and do epic things but still show up on time at 9 AM, their time zone, not yours, and hit the deadline, that really does make you a cut above. And sometimes it's not easy. I suppose one habit that I have, I should have talked about before, is that I'm constantly making lists, lists of things I need to do. And I always plan my week out on Sundays, and the plan often goes out the window by half an hour into Monday. But just that process of laying out things and writing it down manually, low-tech, really, really helpful for me.

Dustin Grinnell (00:37:31 --> 00:38:21)
And just the power of organization, right? You're organizing your day on paper, you're making to-do lists. I do a lot of creative writing. I write fiction as well, and it's like, I think maybe most people think that, you know, writing a novel is just like sitting down and cracking off like chapter 1 and then just picking up where you left off the next day. But you would be surprised how incredibly organized everything is, you know, character profiles, you know, the plot is starting to map out in different folders and dozens of references in one file. It's all very organized and fluid. And it's the same way in, in business too, just making sure that all your files are where they need to be and they're easily accessible and it's not like sort of scatterbrained.

Nathan James Thomas (00:38:22 --> 00:39:36)
Yeah. And likewise with, with travel, right? I mean, travel is that, that thin line between organization and chaos, right? Because you don't want to be so organized that there's no no room for spontaneity. There's no, there's no crack for the magic to get into life. But you don't want to be so chaotic that you've lost your passport, you've got no money, you're trapped, you can't actually travel because you haven't organized, you figured out how to get a train ticket or something. So there's that barrier, that, that fine line. Yeah, you want to be with creative work, with, with business to some extent, like where you see the slider on the organization organization versus chaos scale. And if it's too far towards the organization scale, I find life is just suffocatingly dull. But if it's too far towards the chaos scale, then you're not achieving things and it's just crazy, right? So you want to set that dial for work and travel where you personally have the right comfort zone. And for folks who are attracted to this digital nomad life, it's probably a little bit more towards the chaos than your average person who takes comfort in the sort of routine and predictability of the quote-unquote normal corporate life. And that's cool, but you do need to have that organization and the professional world.

Dustin Grinnell (00:39:37 --> 00:40:17)
And accommodation is a big part of being a digital nomad. It's like, where do you stay? And you know, you're not bouncing from beach to beach, from hostel to hostel, like every day. Sometimes they're kind of short and medium to even long-term stays. And I feel like a big mystery be for someone considering this dynamic is, you know, where do you stay and how do you find those places? Is it Airbnb? And is it— do you stay for a week and then go to another one, or can you negotiate like a month-long stay with someone? Like, how do the digital nomads and your profiles— and how do you manage accommodation? Because you gotta, you gotta sleep somewhere every, every night.

Nathan James Thomas (00:40:17 --> 00:43:02)
And then that's There, there are periods where you may want to travel faster. I mean, I've definitely, when I was much younger, different hostel every day for sure, but it's very hard to get work done if you're, if you're doing that. You really need enough time to settle in, to create some semblance of routine, to not have to deal with packing and moving for a while. So there was quite a long time a couple of years ago when I would do one month at a time in places. So this was when, around when I was living in Georgia country, not the state, one month Airbnb at a time.

That was an odd time period because it's just enough to start feeling comfortable somewhere, and then you pack everything up and, and go again. I've had times when it's been around 3-4 months. I think 3 to 6 months is kind of ideal because you are there long enough to start making friends with people who live there and also people who are, who are visiting. You can start learning a couple of phrases, enough to, to order a beer or coffee in in the language, but you, you're also keeping things fresh and you're not really— longer than 6 months, you start to become, all right, are you kind of actually a resident or an expat here? And then the question is, well, then what are the implications of that?

You're now a tax resident there. Are you really dropping anchor here? Um, do you have to take that a little bit more seriously? 3 to 6 months is kind of that, I think, often that sweet spot. Um, in terms of how to find accommodation for that window, one thing that I found really helpful is you start off booking the normal way, Booking.com or Airbnb for the first couple of weeks.

And if you like the place and if you're not in a super touristy place during high season, normally once you've gone through that initial booking, you have the WhatsApp of the owner and you can just ask, hey, if I wanted to extend long-term, what would that look like? And often you'll get huge discounts because these platforms, they, they're great, but they, they take a huge cut. And dealing directly with the owner they'll often give you special deals. Obviously there's risk in that. I mean, do this at your own risk, but it's something that I know can be effective for, for some folks.

Dustin Grinnell (00:43:03 --> 00:43:45)
Much like you need to sleep someplace every night, you need to— even if you prefer being solitary or on your own for a certain period of time, you do need to make connections. You do need to meet people and, you know, be social from time to time, even if you're a digital nomad kind of living on your own. And you shared some really great advice for meeting people in new places, like tapping into your personal network joining expat Facebook groups, or even just like saying yes to a dinner with a local family. Why are making connections and being social important, and, and how else do you find connections?

Nathan James Thomas (00:43:45 --> 00:46:02)
Other folks from similar countries and similar backgrounds to yours instead of getting to know people who are actually from the country that you're in a little bit more. The best of these meetup groups are quite mixed, where especially if there are more kind of party-ish events, if there's a pub quiz or something, you'll find that many often they're about half local expats and you can just branch out and introduce yourself to people. When someone will— once you get to know one person, it's making that first connection, they'll introduce you to others. And if you get to know people who've lived there a little bit longer start organizing trips and events together, you can be pulled into that social circle more. But at the same time, there is also— you shouldn't feel guilty if you are hanging out with fellow digital nomads, right?

Because everyone wants to meet and talk with other people who share similar challenges to them. And it's amazing to be able to vent about how frustrating it is to do these Zoom calls at 2 AM without good Wi-Fi or how hard it was to hit that deadline whilst living out of a suitcase or a backpack, you know, and just because every profession likes to hang out with other people from the same profession and bitch about things, and that's great. And then you can also have practical tips and you can talk about places to live and they may suggest accommodation, where to stay, where not to. So there is benefit of just getting in that circle in the community. There are very different kind of subgenres of digital nomads.

The community is kind of an odd place. I've always kind of been on the periphery of it. I find that there are sort of two groups. There are the groups that are super passionate about travel and use work as a way to facilitate their travel, and then there are the groups that use travel as a way to get some advantage in work. Often it's people from high-tax countries who are moving to low-tax countries, say.

Dustin Grinnell (00:46:03 --> 00:47:02)
Or how am I going to find clients? And what if I have a client and I lose them and then I don't have any money and I'm in a foreign country? And how do I deal with taxes? And how do I deal with, uh, getting visas? And it seems exhausting, but also maybe thrilling as well.

But there's just a lot of, like, uncertainties involved in thinking about it. And that's why you know, I wanted to talk to you to kind of make it like a little bit more concrete and hear the things you can do. What fears do you often find when you're talking to people about whether or not they want to live this dynamic? And then what do you say? What kind of advice do you give to counteract those, those common fears?

Nathan James Thomas (00:47:02 --> 00:51:48)
Great question. Yeah, I would say, um, tax is a big one, and tax is really complicated, and it's been something that I've had to do a lot of work to learn about and become as educated in as possible and made some mistakes there. It's, um, as long as you approach that subject with good faith and get advice from actual experts in the countries that you're in, it's very solvable. Also, that there are more and more of these digital nomad visas that are existing that kind of have that tax compliance built in with the visa system. I've not gone down that path just because I was already quite deep in the journey when these things started cropping out.

But if you're at home and looking to start going, Google country digital nomad visa. I think there are 4 or 5 dozen countries that have them now, and that kind of has all that legal stuff built into it. People get very anxious about legal visa tax things, which I totally get, very relatable. That has that built into that. And also people have different personal levels of risk tolerance with that stuff because it is very gray area-y still quite often..

And it's also asking yourself kind of where you sit in that area. There are some people who love to play the system. That's not me yet. I just kind of want to do the right thing and not have to worry about it as much as possible, which can be tricky even when you have good faith because it's complicated. So these visas can help a lot.

Loneliness is something that you mentioned that comes up a lot. It comes up a lot for young people who are looking to travel the first time. It tends to not be as much of a problem as people think. Book just because you, you find it so easy to fall into company of other travelers. And you don't have to be an extrovert, you really don't.

You find, um, all sorts of weird people travel, and you'll find people who relate to you, your thing. If you have a thing, by the way, like you're really into, I don't know, golf or photography, or you have a specific hobby— so for me it's travel writing and literature— you'll find people everywhere who are into that thing and go to those groups and you'll make friends. So that's, that's a great way to elbow your way into something. Actually read, um, aside, a story of a former politician in New Zealand, and his thing was he was a recovering alcoholic, and whenever he traveled, he went to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, and that was how he made friends around the world. So whatever your thing is, um, you'll find people around the world with whom you can relate to that.

And then yeah, the money side, like, will you be able to earn enough on the road to be able to facilitate your travel? Obviously, the most common way people solve that problem is by living in cheaper countries. So if you earn in dollars and you live in— Poland used to be very cheap when I was first here 10 years ago. It's not so much anymore. Still a lot cheaper than the US or, say, Scandinavia, but it's no longer a crazy cheap place.

Georgia and Albania are. There are a lot of countries where the amount of money that you would need to earn in the US simply just to survive will actually allow you to facilitate a very relaxed and if not luxurious, at least very comfortable life. So thinking about that, some people, there's a, there's a phrase for it. It's one of the nomads I interviewed in my book used, I think it was geographical arbitrage, which is a fancy way of saying earning money in dollars and living in a cheaper country. So that, that can be really, really effective.

It still is. And like, in a bigger picture level, this kind of makes me think that there are going to be implications of this economically when you can work for a US firm while living in Poland. Like, this— I feel like the, the full ramifications of this haven't been felt yet, but it will be, will be figured out. Like, stuff will change because of this. It's, it's crazy.

But that's, that's one of the bigger ones, that you probably don't need to earn as much as you think You do. And final thing, that it's not like you have to sell your, your house and quit your job and go out on the road for 10 years. You can, you can do it subtly. You can start with a month. And if you have an office job, pitching your boss on working remotely for a month may not be such a hard sell.

And if during that month you're able to hit all your deadlines and milestones without any disruption, then maybe leverage it up to 3 months and before you know it, you're digital nomading and you can kind of subtly ease yourself in there. I have a lot of friends in London who have corporate jobs and they do a couple of months a year from Greece or wherever. It's a light version, but that's totally fine too. It doesn't have to be a 100% pedal to the metal thing. I did it very much 100% for a lot of years and in the last year or so have slowed down a lot and become a lot more kind of anchored which is a new experience as well.

Dustin Grinnell (00:51:48 --> 00:52:23)
Yeah, I mean, uh, I feel like this is a good place to maybe, uh, talk about your past 3 weeks. Uh, you, uh, understand you just, you just had a baby, and, uh, you're a father now, uh, and you're a parent with your partner. And, um, you know, I wonder, as someone who's been traveling for so long, is, you know, currently a digital nomad, is parenthood an adventure in and of itself that you are Like, how are you managing this right now? And are you looking at it as an adventure? And I'm just curious to hear your thoughts.

Nathan James Thomas (00:52:23 --> 00:54:10)
Yeah, I mean, it's so new. So I have a daughter who will be 3 weeks old this weekend, my wife and I's first kid. It's so new that I don't even know how I'm managing or even if I am, but it's a new adventure. And yeah, we're not digital nomading now. We actually bought a house about a year ago.

So we're Really like going from different accommodation every month and different country every couple of months to a house, baby in the space of a year, even slightly less. So real sudden screeching of the brakes. There are out there digital nomads who travel with kids. It's a real thing. I was at the Bansko Digital Nomad Conference a couple of years ago and there was a speaker who spoke about that.

There are people who do it. I don't know if we will so much. I know we will always travel. I'm from New Zealand, and New Zealand is where my parents are, and I'm always going to be going back there. And I want my daughter to have access to that world as well as this world.

So I think being international is kind of just baked in. But yeah, for me, it's kind of— it's tricky because, I mean, tricky because parenthood seems to be extremely tricky, and I have an awe for parents now. But I never did. And I know I'm still at the very, very beginning, uh, of this journey, but it's also because travel has been kind of everything to me for so long. It's how I've defined myself, and it's been my source of joy and adventure, but also comfort.

It's kind of been the thing that's always been there for me. You can always just catch a train and disappear for a bit, move on to the next place. And not having that— you can't just sort of bugger off— is tricky. It's really gonna be an adjustment. But yeah, trying to see it as the next great adventure, I think that'll be the wise way to, to see it.

Dustin Grinnell (00:54:10 --> 00:55:04)
Yeah, and be, uh, find your expeditions when you can, you know, whether it's like a weekend trip or something. I know there are mountaineers who, you know, they have families and— but if they don't go into the mountains every 6 months, they say they go crazy. So they try to build in those trips. One thing I wanted to ask, and you know, about living as a digital nomad is striking a balance between freedom and adventure that comes with traveling and being untethered and the desire to hit traditional milestones like career growth and stability and security. You argue in your book that it is possible to have both, but I'm wondering how you manage that. How do you manage both the freedom aspect of it, but then also growing in your career? Because you would assume you want— you don't want to give up one or the other, but how do you balance it?

Nathan James Thomas (00:55:05 --> 00:56:50)
But when it's the high points, you're so inspired by the creative energy you get from travel, you're given so much confidence because because you were here when the train broke down and no one spoke the language, and you were able to figure out how to get from A to B by taking this bus and this taxi and then hitching a ride with this guy. And you solved the problem and saw something that no one else has ever seen before. And you have this renewed sense of confidence and creativity, and you take that energy and you put it to your work. And you take that knowing that travel teaches you that there's always a way, right? Think about every delay or obstacle or scary thing that happened when you've been traveling.

Every meaningful trip has that, and you're still here, right? You got through it one way or another. And taking that lesson, that robustness, that resilience, and putting it to your work and having this attitude that you will figure things out can make you a little bit bolder and a little bit more relentless. And that is when it works at its best. So the more you can live in that bucket, I think it can be a symbiotic relationship between the career and the travel.

Dustin Grinnell (00:56:50 --> 00:58:12)
What are more of the kind of benefits, so to speak, of travel? You know, when you were just talking, you reminded me of when I went to East Africa to go on safari and climb Kilimanjaro. And when we were on our way back, we were in a taxi going into Nairobi to go to the airport, and we were stopped by two guards, and they both had like AK-47s, and they spoke to our driver, and it became very clear that that we were going to be basically giving up our money to go through a checkpoint. And, uh, you know, there was, there were fears involved there, like, what's going on here? And we just navigated it, you know, we just, uh, you know, did what we could and stayed calm and stayed focused.

And I think we ended up giving them like $50 or something like that. And, you know, I was— I don't think about this consciously, but, you know, that was a challenge. That was something that we had to navigate that you don't see in an average day in Boston, Massachusetts. And these things inform your life, you know. Once you, you know, make a mistake at work or something, it doesn't really matter as much when you've had an experience like that, uh, you know.

Nathan James Thomas (00:58:12 --> 00:59:55)
And I've had that. I've had a few quite big sort of personal, professional challenges recently. And I have sort of thought back on some of those crazy travel experiences and thought, right, like, you felt this feeling before and you've gone through to the other side and you will again. And that's really helpful to have. I think travel really can make you more robust and show you that you do muddle through and help you improvise and become resourceful.

So it's great training for, for everything, I think. And then, yeah, I can also— at its best, almost the, the opposite of that— it can help you to let go a little bit of yourself and your norms. So if you're, if you're at home and you're where you went to university, where you work, and you're hanging out with other people people from similar backgrounds, certain points of view, whether it's political or just ways of living or attitudes, are you surrounded by them. And you travel and you meet weird people, whether they're expats or locals, and you have people who grew up reading totally different books and watching different TV shows and totally different perspective on the world than you have. And, you know, the politician you thought was great, they think is the devil, and But there's something about, I don't know, when you travel, you tend to be more open-minded to listen to these folks, whereas at home you'd probably kind of make an excuse and exit the situation.

Dustin Grinnell (00:59:55 --> 01:00:06)
Your book's been out for a bit now. I'm wondering, have you heard from readers? Uh, have you inspired anybody to become a digital nomad? Have they talked about what reactions they've had to your book?

Nathan James Thomas (01:00:06 --> 01:00:59)
Yeah, I've had some interesting ones. I had a Buddhist monk write to me on Facebook asking for specific advice on how they wanted to travel, I think, from New Zealand to somewhere in Asia and how to fund the trip. And yeah, a lot of people I've spoken to have wanted to go, have been at like that early stage when they're like, right, I'm living here, I have this job, I want to take the leap and go for it. And I've followed the journey of a couple of people who have, and they've and they've done very well and they're out living and doing extraordinary things. And also some who have just taken a little bit of the, the tips in the book and used it, plus they're kind of more straight on the narrow conventional job, to just carve out a couple of months of the year to travel and to enjoy it. So that's, that's been really cool to, to see as well.

Dustin Grinnell (01:00:59 --> 01:01:10)
Is there anything else from— any advice, anything in terms of, you know, the hows of making this dynamic work that, uh, that come to mind? Anything else you want to share at this point?

Nathan James Thomas (01:01:11 --> 01:03:07)
I mean, we spoke about routines before, and for some they're absolutely vital. For others, it's something that you kind of ease your way into, or maybe it's a little bit more optional. I think having this mindset of experimentation, that you're going to try a few different things and you're going to find out what works is valid. When it comes to the freelancing side, it can be really good if you can transition into getting your first freelance clients whilst you still have your day job and then you're kind of halfway there. And then that can be a tricky moment when you've kind of, with one hand you have your day job, with the other hand you're building up your location-independent freelance business and it's when you make that leap and different people will have different pieces of advice on when you do that.

For some, it might be best to just do a clean break, otherwise you'll never do it. For some, you probably, you might wanna be comfortable working really long days for some months whilst you have that stability. It depends on, again, your risk tolerance and your circumstances. And if you're someone with a family and kids, probably you're going to be much more risk-averse than if you're someone in your 20s and, you know, you don't mind sleeping rough on a few hostels for a few weeks whilst you figure it out. I've been in all different circumstances myself.

So yeah, it really is one great experiment. I mean, ironically, I think I've tried to create a playbook for something for which there almost by definition can't be a playbook, but I wanted to give people like, you're here and you wanna be there. Here are some specific actions you can take to get the ball rolling and some advice to help you shoot a bit sharper with some of the business and client freelancing sites. So I hope that helps. And it was fun to write too, and fun to interview people who have really different backgrounds just to say like, you know, you don't have to be in your 20s and you don't have to be single and you don't have to be tech savvy there.

Dustin Grinnell (01:03:07 --> 01:03:35)
What do you hope for yourself and your family now going forward? Um, I'm imagining things might be a little quieter on the, uh, you know, adventure travel front for a bit, but, um, I'm sure the itch will come again when you want to try to integrate your old ways of, of living. And do you have like a, like a vision for your future, uh, for your family and as a parent, uh, and incorporating this lifestyle as well?

Nathan James Thomas (01:03:35 --> 01:04:57)
I definitely want my daughter to feel very confident in different environments and to have that real burning sense of curiosity as well. So I mean, like, one of my formative memories which I can still access was when I was maybe 4 years old and I was in Singapore. I was going from New Zealand to England with my mom and mom or dad, one of the parents, and just that taxi from the airport and seeing, you know, Asia and all of the noise and symbols and color of it. And I think that kind of woke something up in me, and I can't wait to be able to give her that kind of experience. But gosh, certainly, I don't know, I mean, there are people who travel with kids a lot, and I think the logistics of that are going to be something to figure out.

It's definitely going to be a balance. I'm probably a little bit too early in it to to set expectations, but to be able to give her that kind of jolt of realization, like, this is what travel is. And also for her mom and I, because we both traveled together for so many years and such an important part of who my wife and I are, um, if we try and find a way to do that that is pure to us but also beneficial for her and not an obstacle to her comfort or well-being or security I think that's, that's the challenge. Um, talk to me in a few years, see if I figured it out. But we'll, uh, we'll give it, we'll give it a go.

Dustin Grinnell (01:04:57 --> 01:05:02)
I'm sure you'll just be, uh, you know, making it up, uh, day by day like any, any parent.

Nathan James Thomas (01:05:02 --> 01:05:03)
Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (01:05:03 --> 01:05:17)
Well, any projects you're working on now that you can share? Another book maybe, uh, or, or just, uh, being a dad and, and working your, uh, freelance jobs? Uh, do you have anything new, uh, that you're thinking about?

Nathan James Thomas (01:05:17 --> 01:06:37)
Intrepid Times is a real big focus of mine at the moment. So there have been— Intrepid Times is a travel writing, narrative travel writing publication. I founded it 10 or 11 years ago, and there have been times in my professional life where it's been kind of on the back burner as I focus on other things. It takes over, but over the last few months, I've been really reflecting on what's important to me, what I want to achieve, and this is something that's, that's super key. We have such a wonderful community of writers.

We have a writing competition on right now. The quality of the stories we receive goes up and up. I also think there's an interesting opportunity now to define how to sustainably run a fully independent publication. Like, the internet is changing. What does it mean to be able to offer quote-unquote content, like meaningful writing based on real experience, not written by an AI chatbot that people benefit from in a totally different Google world, totally different search engine world, totally different monetization world?

Like, can we pull this off? If we can, I think that would be absolutely fascinating. So that's a real gamble, but it's fun. And I think for me also, it provides a nice way to scratch the travel itch by immersing myself in travel literature as an editor while staying anchored in place a couple of steps away from the cot. Totally.

Dustin Grinnell (01:06:37 --> 01:06:52)
Um, so just to wrap up, let us know where we can, like, find your work maybe, uh, steer listeners to the Intrepid Times website, any other places you'd like to, you know, direct people as they, you know, want to learn more about you?

Nathan James Thomas (01:06:52 --> 01:07:18)
Well, thanks so much for this opportunity, Dustin. It's been really fun talking to you. Uh, yeah, the book is Untethered: Living the Digital Nomad Life in an Uncertain World. It's available on all of your Amazons, um, good bookstores everywhere, I hope. And at Intrepid Times, you can Google Intrepid Times or go to intrepidtimes.com And if you go to intrepretimes.com/books, you can also find links to buy it and my previous couple of books there as well.

Dustin Grinnell (01:07:18 --> 01:07:24)
Well, Nathan James Thomas, thank you so much for coming on and talking about your book and your work. I really appreciate it.

Nathan James Thomas (01:07:24 --> 01:07:27)
Thanks so much, Dustin. This was a pleasure.

Dustin Grinnell (01:07:27 --> 01:08:04)
Thanks for listening to this episode of Curiously. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Nathan James Thomas, author of Untethered. Did it challenge you or helped expand your perspective or satisfy your curiosity about the world, please consider sharing it with your friends and use it to have a conversation of your own. If you want to support Curiously, please consider leaving a review. They encourage people to listen and help attract great guests.

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