Why Some People Are Magnetic on Camera (and How to Learn It Without Being an Actor)

Dustin Grinnell (00:00:00 --> 00:01:46)
I'm Dustin Grinnell, and this is Curiously.

When I made my first video for my Sci-Fi with Heart series, in which I reviewed the movie Arrival, I sent the edit to my friend Anthony Thomas. Anthony has spent hundreds of hours in front of cameras as an actor, model, video podcast host, and YouTuber. I first met Anthony when I was working at Bose as a copywriter. We'd cast him as an actor for a product launch video we were creating for new wireless earbuds. For a day, we shot with Anthony in different environments: outdoors, inside a music venue, and on a subway.

In each setting, he nailed his performance, taking direction effortlessly from the Bose team and our director. Whether it was a smile to indicate he'd just turned his music on or a made-up phone conversation, Anthony delivered what the moment called for. I watched it all from a set of monitors behind the production. And something about his performance stood out. It wasn't just his natural ability, it was the way he drew you in.

A confident grin, acting like he was enjoying the music, made you want to watch. The guy had skills. So when I finished my video, I sent it to him for a vibe check, just asking for his thoughts before I published it. What I got back was far more valuable: a breakdown of how I could improve my performance, along with specific tips and techniques for doing so. It was clear that his feedback came from a place of support, but he wasn't going to sugarcoat it.

Anthony Thomas (00:01:47 --> 00:04:30)
Just listen to the audio. So go back to this video, play it, and set your phone aside, or whatever you're listening on, set it aside to where you can't see you speaking. You're just listening. And what you want to do is you want to tune in to see if I were only listening to this like radio or podcast, is this something that I feel is accurately emoting what the guy speaking, aka yourself? Is it accurately emoting just with audio?

Forget video, just audio. Or is it a little bit off? Like, I intended for this to really be fun, engaging, and when I play it back, just the audio, it's maybe dark or it's dull or it's dim, whatever it is. So first, play it back with just the audio. And then the next thing you want to do is do the reverse of that.

Play it back and watch without any audio. So put it on mute, volume all the way down, and just watch. Watch the mannerisms. Watch this guy talking to the camera and see what sort of mood, what sort of energy, what sort of goal type of emotion do you think this guy is trying to get across. And when you don't have audio, you're only looking at video, you're just reading body language and you're just like, okay, I think I see this.

And a good way to kind of see the other end of the spectrum from, okay, we're trying to get better at this, and go the whole other end of the spectrum of like, who crushes it with this? Go back and watch stuff like Three Stooges or Charlie Chaplin, you know, silent films and things like this. Or just watch any sort of really good film, some good acting. You don't have to have the audio on to get an idea of what's going on in the scene, in the whole film, in the story. And that's what we're after.

We want somebody who's only watching it to be able to say accurately, this guy feels this type of way, or they're emoting this type of message. And the same is true when they're only listening to audio. They should be able to just listen and say, oh, this guy is fired up, or this guy is passionate about this thing, or, you know, this guy is just kind of struggling but chugging along and just trying to keep showing up even though he doesn't really feel like it, you know? It's that sort of feel. You want to be able to hit both of these.

Dustin Grinnell (00:04:31 --> 00:04:51)
Anthony knows what he's doing, and from a craft perspective, he immediately recognized areas where I can improve. For me, as someone who's typically behind the camera thinking through scripts and direction, it was eye-opening. Here's another clip where Anthony shares some tricks to help you feel more comfortable before the camera rolls.

Anthony Thomas (00:04:52 --> 00:05:48)
One of the things that I would say, um, I don't know if you did this or not, I'm assuming you did not, but a warm-up before you even start recording, something like this. So when you're talking about like, hey, I'm gonna record a video and this is my favorite topic, a good warm-up to this could literally be just jumping up and down like hopping up and down, bouncing on your toes, like as if you're jump roping and shaking your arms out and everything like that, because it's getting your body excited. It's expressing some excitement like a little kid who's just opened their favorite Christmas gift. Doing that before you start recording is going to get your body a little bit better in position to start being used while you talk. So if I'm gonna talk about my favorite thing, it should come across to other people that like, this guy is fired up about this. So when you're saying, This is my favorite film of all time. It should come across as this is your favorite film of all time.

Dustin Grinnell (00:05:50 --> 00:06:54)
The insights Anthony was sharing could help anyone improve their presence on camera. This isn't just for actors or public figures. Today, we all spend more time in front of cameras, whether it's a Zoom meeting at work, a video podcast, or creating content for our own social channels. We live in a visual world, and if you don't engage on camera, your message won't land. You've seen it for yourself.

Politicians who can't capture attention on camera fade into obscurity. Meanwhile, those who are magnetic, they stick around. So whether you're looking to create better content, be more effective at work, or even run for office, this episode is for you, and I hope you enjoy it.

Dustin Grinnell (00:06:57 --> 00:06:59)
Anthony Thomas, welcome to the podcast.

Anthony Thomas (00:06:59 --> 00:07:03)
Thank you, my good man. I am so hyped to be here.

Dustin Grinnell (00:07:03 --> 00:07:18)
So the tables have turned, so to speak. I was on your podcast 2 years ago, and you are usually the one asking all the questions, and now you're in the hot seat, my friend. How's it feel to be on the other side of the table?

Anthony Thomas (00:07:18 --> 00:07:31)
So far it feels great. I've received no punches, no jabs, nothing of the sort yet. So right now I feel amazing. Ask me at the end of this and we'll see if we maintain that same energy. Nice.

Dustin Grinnell (00:07:31 --> 00:07:35)
And all right, you just celebrated a birthday. I believe it was on the same day as me.

Anthony Thomas (00:07:35 --> 00:07:42)
Yes, there— it's a very special day. Only an elite force of individuals are born on that day. So yeah, we did share that.

Dustin Grinnell (00:07:43 --> 00:07:45)
By the way, what time of day were you born? Do you know that?

Anthony Thomas (00:07:45 --> 00:07:49)
I don't know specifically. I know it was morning. It was before 9:00 AM.

Dustin Grinnell (00:07:49 --> 00:07:53)
Mine was like 6:30. So I mean, born within—

Anthony Thomas (00:07:53 --> 00:07:54)
'89?

Dustin Grinnell (00:07:54 --> 00:07:57)
1983. March 3rd, 1983.

Anthony Thomas (00:07:57 --> 00:08:00)
Oh, you got me just by a little bit. I'm an '89.

Dustin Grinnell (00:08:00 --> 00:08:00)
Got it.

Anthony Thomas (00:08:00 --> 00:08:04)
But we're still '80s babies, so we're still in this battle, this generational battle together.

Dustin Grinnell (00:08:07 --> 00:09:21)
So you are a multifaceted man. I respect you for your entrepreneurialism and your creativity and your business savvy. The reason why I wanted to talk to you today is I wanted to pick your brain about how to show up effectively on camera specifically. As a model, as a commercial model, as an actor, and as a business person, you're often making videos. You're making a commercial, or you're making content on your various social channels, and you're making videos on your YouTube page, and you're good at it.

Uh, you show up well, uh, you're effective. It's— you're easy to watch, and that's not easy to do. That's part of your personality, it's part of your technique, it's part of education and its craft. So today I want to just talk about like the art and science of showing up effectively on camera. So in your bio, I'll have a lot about your biographical information, but to start, I was hoping you could just like kind of put your experience in context of showing up on camera, like just a quick, uh, speech about kind of what got you here.

Anthony Thomas (00:09:21 --> 00:12:32)
Absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you. That is so kind of you. I appreciate it deeply. I make content with my mindset of maybe nobody watches this, or if somebody watches it, maybe they don't enjoy it.

But where I'm at now is different from where I was in my past in that. And it feels great to have that feedback that you do enjoy it and it is something you kind of connect with. So to sum it all up, I am a lifelong athlete. Through high school, that was kind of the start of me being put in front of a camera. I would perform in athletics, and then the local news or newspaper would interview me.

And I had zero training, no media presence at all. It was just right after the game, pull this guy aside, put a camera and a microphone in his face, and ask him questions that he's never been asked before, and he's supposed to just kind of perform. And I was not good at it at all. And then fast forward through sports, obviously you have a few more at-bats with that in front of camera. But then post-college, I started modeling.

Had zero ambition for acting. I just really enjoyed modeling. I stumbled upon it. And my second year of modeling, I think it was, there was a stylist who encouraged me to go into acting because of the energy that I had between actually taking photos. Like, between shots, it's kind of this dead zone, and I would just entertain and entertain and entertain.

She's like, you have to be an actor. And I laughed about it, but she was serious because she had an experience with a very close person to her who went on She watched the whole process, her go take acting classes, made it big, did the Hollywood thing, crushed it on a series and all this stuff. And so that was where the seed was planted for me to get in front of camera. I went, took some acting classes, started to really enjoy that process. And to me, it was this free feeling of being able to hop into different arenas of the human spirit where society doesn't necessarily encourage anger to really be let out or sadness to really be felt.

And in this space, you could totally feel anything, anywhere, anytime, and it was welcome and celebrated. So that was the start for me, was acting classes. And fast forward now, over a decade later, I've still been doing it. I've been self-employed modeling, acting, and I've taken that over into charity golf entertainment as well, where I'm performing live for audiences. So I'm not just on camera where you can kind of mess up and redo a take.

If I mess up at a charity event where I'm live and I'm hosting an event or I'm emceeing for a gala or something like that, it is what it is, right? It's the rawest form of performance is in person. And I just have to keep grinding and finding ways to improve that always. So here I am over a decade later of doing all of that and trying to find those little tips and tricks that I wished I knew 10 years ago that have taken so long to kind of sharpen. And now I'm finding different little ways to go, oh, I could save people time.

Dustin Grinnell (00:12:32 --> 00:13:41)
Yeah, I want to talk about like two things. It's the tips and tricks, the techniques and the craft, but also the mindset, the psychological hacks, the psychological blocks, those types of— I think those are kind of like the big themes. But one of the things I wanted to kind of dig in on what you just said is like, You said it was in between takes when someone saw you as being animated, being charismatic, probably just being yourself versus how you were showing up on camera. I think for me as a way beginner, that's the issue. It's like, I know I have myself that's interesting to friends and family, even coworkers and things. But then once you put a camera on my face, I'm tense, I'm stiff, I'm unrelaxed. Like, whoa. Like, you know, showtime, right? So, yes. Just talk about briefly how you navigated that process of like, oh, there's someone when the camera's turned off that needs to come out when the cameras are on. Yeah. How is that?

Anthony Thomas (00:13:41 --> 00:16:12)
The one thing I will say is Before you even start to record whatever project, whatever thing you're working on at that point, before you even start that, if you can get narrowed down to why you're doing whatever it is that you're doing, and you know, there's like Simon Sinek, start with why. I'm not going that deep with it. What I mean is, what is the purpose of this piece of material you're creating? Because I'm going to approach it very differently if I'm about to press record on a video I'm gonna create that's purely educational. Versus I'm about to press record on a piece of material that's sole purpose is to build an audience or to connect with people, right?

So if I start with why am I creating this piece in the first place? Like what's the core thing? Now granted, you have pieces that have layers where it's like, oh, I want to educate and I also want to build an audience, right? But if you start with that, it changes kind of how you're going to approach it in the first place. If I'm gonna go, okay, this is, purely educational, my opener, my hook, or my promise, let's say, to start the video is gonna be different from, uh, MrBeast trying to just purely entertain people.

It's gonna be very different. So the approach and your tactics should be a little bit different as well. It feels a lot more comfortable for you to know how you want to present if you know that part. If you know that one thing, then you don't have all these questions of,, oh, am I being too over the top? Or a very wise individual shared with me the other day, I in a video said boring, like, hey, you're being boring on camera.

And this very wise individual who we both might be friends with suggested that I use a different term like still or stale or stiff. Stiff. Yeah. You know, stiff was the word. But you know, those all could be Excellent placeholders for boring, less emotionally driven.

But if you're just confident in why you're doing what you're doing and the purpose of the piece that you're creating, then you don't have so much turmoil going on of like, oh, am I too over the top? Or am I too this? Am I not enough that? Or, you know, the questions that arise of like, how am I supposed to be with my hands or whatever it may be? Not every video calls for the same energy, right?

Dustin Grinnell (00:16:12 --> 00:16:53)
You take the direction and you try to get into that mindset. And then I'm assuming your self sort of falls away. You're just the vehicle for the direction. It's like, we want you to wear these headphones. We want you to pretend you're listening to music.

We want you to pretend you're absorbed in that music. And that's a result of the great noise canceling that's happened. So then that's your purpose in that perspective. And you just kind of go with it. And then your nervousness falls away.

Anthony Thomas (00:16:53 --> 00:18:03)
And that's very general. And what I have found when you're talking nerves and you're talking, oh man, I'm so nervous, generality is what builds and adds to your nervousness. When you can get specific, that's how you defeat nerves. So if you say I'm nervous to get on camera, I would go, okay, if we live there, you're gonna stay nervous. But if I go specific, what exactly are you nervous about?

And then you say, well, I, I, I, I, I, I, I have a stutter. And we go, okay, now we're specific of what that is, right? So now we can address the stutter and you might be able to find ways to get ahead of that. So if it's an interview, you could say to the interviewer before they even start interviewing you, hey, I, I have a stutter. Can you just let me finish what I'm trying to say on my own rather than interrupt me?

Dustin Grinnell (00:18:03 --> 00:18:06)
Okay, so you start to create them.

Anthony Thomas (00:18:06 --> 00:18:44)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then, and that's just one example, but anything, the more specific you can get with this of why you feel the way you feel, of what it is. So a director that says, yeah, I want you in your headphones and feeling it. Well, that's not enough for me. So in my head, I'm going to go, hey, director, just to clarify, do you want me in my zone with the music in a sad, melancholy feel or in a high upbeat, you know, I'm happy for real type of feel? Because those are going to be totally different, even though generally they're the same. You're just into the music. It's not enough. You need to get specific to get, like, really break through that wall, right?

Dustin Grinnell (00:18:44 --> 00:19:22)
What other common blocks do you see in general? Like that, that the example you gave of the block of a stutter is kind of like a, like a physical inhibition. But there are lots of blocks, right? There's other physical blocks, like maybe you just, you're shy. But there's also psychological blocks like you You just don't feel confident. Maybe you don't feel like what you're saying is worth talking about. Like, what are the things like come to mind? And because it strikes me that that's what's holding back the performance in a lot of cases.

Anthony Thomas (00:19:22 --> 00:19:54)
Yeah. And you see this, everybody has seen this. If you've ever watched any sort of television series or movies, especially, you see people that they fall out of character, quote unquote. And what that is is like you're watching and this person is totally like— you buy the person. It's Denzel is playing this character and you don't see Denzel. You just see the character. And then randomly you see Denzel. That's when— not saying he's done this. I have not spotted Denzel falling out of character.

Dustin Grinnell (00:19:54 --> 00:19:57)
Training Day, just flawless. Yes.

Anthony Thomas (00:19:57 --> 00:20:05)
Yeah. King Kong, he got shit on me. That's right. That's right. And you don't see Denzel doing that. Like, you see the character, right?

Dustin Grinnell (00:20:05 --> 00:20:08)
That's just a corrupt, uh, detective right there.

Anthony Thomas (00:20:08 --> 00:21:46)
And first of all, acting is very difficult, especially when you're shooting such long days. They could be very arduous days of a 16-hour day on set, 18-hour day on set. At some point, like, It is a kind of a marathon game, so it's tough to do. But that said, you will see people fall out of their character to where you see their actual individual that's playing the role and you go, oh, they just kind of, they just kind of lost me a little bit there, right? That is sort of the same thing that happens with people.

If you have this inhibition that you are such a great person,. But then the camera turns on and you think you have to be a certain character. And then it's like, oh, I'm supposed to be very vibrant because the camera is recording me, or I'm supposed to say something clever because the camera is recording me, or I'm supposed to— all of the performative things like that that you're feeling like you're supposed to do, it's not actually true. What you're supposed to do is just be you. But understand the medium that you're delivering it.

Dustin Grinnell (00:21:47 --> 00:21:47)
Yeah.

Anthony Thomas (00:21:47 --> 00:22:19)
So In acting, like, especially in theater and things like this, or on camera, it's rare that you're ever supposed to have your back to the camera or turn, like, completely profile, right? It's rare. So that's one of those things that it's like, well, in real life, if I'm giving you directions, I would turn my back to you and I would turn around and point and try to gesture and stuff. And that's totally normal. So understanding the medium of how things present, it's like if I turn my back to the camera and then there's the whole microphone thing because my mic is over here, and as I turn and you lose my voice and then I'm back over You know, like that bit.

Dustin Grinnell (00:22:19 --> 00:22:20)
So that's craft.

Anthony Thomas (00:22:20 --> 00:23:25)
Yeah. So there's a lot to— it's unlimited how much you can learn about these things to get better and better, which is why over a decade I just still am hungry to keep improving. But there are things that you could go, I'm just going to keep this super basic and it will help me out. Like getting specific rather than general to beat any sort of inhibition that you feel or any insecurity that you feel. Why do you feel insecure?

Well, because Anytime a camera comes on, I go, I'm stiffening up and I just, my personality just shuts off. So go, okay, what is it about a camera that makes you do that? Why do you feel that just a camera has that power over you? I don't know. It's because I just want to, I want to look so great on camera, but then I freak out and get in my head.

It's like, okay, so what you've done in the past is you get stiff and it hasn't worked for you on camera. Are we in agreement? Yes, that's true. Okay, so let's scrap how you've done it in the past. Let's try something different.

Dustin Grinnell (00:23:25 --> 00:24:25)
They're staring at the camera, they're staring at a machine. That's a machine. It has a little refractive glass. It has a red light on it to know that you're going. Someone's told you to go.

How do you pretend? How do you say, "Oh, I have 20 million people on the other side of that"? Do you try to block that out and just go? Or do you just pretend that you're friendly and approachable because you know that's what's going to show up on camera? Is it just practice?

Anthony Thomas (00:24:25 --> 00:28:52)
So like I mentioned earlier, there's levels to it, right? The more that you can stack on and get into the nuance, the better you can perform, the better you could be, the better you can actually emit yourself through a camera, right? But if we're talking to beginners, to someone who's just, I, I, I've been on camera once or twice and it just doesn't feel comfortable to me and I just wanna feel comfortable. If we're talking to these individuals, the whole imaginative game is kind of tough to get into because for one, you're already battling, how do I come off on film, on camera, right? That's already one battle.

But then you have the, while I'm battling that, I also have to try to think of this imaginary situation that's gonna shift my personality to— that's a lot to comprehend and, and to try to get into. So the one thing that I would say to start off first and foremost is repetitions. The reps are king. Yeah. Period.

It doesn't matter who you are. If you want an example of this, before we started recording this, I did a 3-minute warmup. Right? It's early in the morning over here. This is kind of the first thing I'm doing for the day.

I haven't gotten a workout in, I haven't eaten breakfast, none of this stuff. So I'm, you know, wake up and groggy. But hopefully you can't tell because I did a quick little 3-minute, let me do vocal warmup, a mental exercise. I'm talking to myself in my studio and trying to get into the flow of speaking and going from thought to speech and having it be relatively smooth, or at least smoother than if I didn't do some sort of warmup. It's repetitions for sure that are gonna be king.

Now, what do you do with repetitions? That's kind of important cuz you could be repeating and trying the same bad tactic. Yeah. Would still help you out over not doing anything, I would argue. But if you get just a couple of little tools to try to go, okay, we're gonna practice this and just do this before I have to speak to anybody to get on camera.

So an example,— the person that's going to get on camera and potentially speak to 20 million people, if they know why they're speaking to this person. Now, legacy news in the current world might have a different effect and different impact on people. I'm well aware. But let's say anybody on teleprompter, take all your subjective opinions about all these things aside, they're about to speak and it's going to go to 20 million people. Is the person about to go on camera in agreement with the message that's being sent.

That's the first thing in an actor's world. In my world of, hey, you're going to play a role, I have to be okay playing a role that maybe isn't me or maybe isn't something that I would say, yeah, this is who I agree with. Because the art of acting and entertainment is different from the art of education and informing. And if you start again with, like, why am I even about to record this video, that should hopefully, that should help you go, okay, I'm doing it for these people and I can do that. I can get more fired up.

You look at like Bill Nye the Science Guy back in the day when it was like before everybody had a camera and could do all this stuff, he was the most personable scientist that anybody knew or had access to. I'm willing to bet if you look at Bill Nye 30 years ago and look at him present day, he's driven by helping people understand the world better. And helping kids who might not have access to someone of his caliber in science that can also explain and make science as fun as he was able to do. So his why every time he's gonna press record on the camera and start filming, his why is, okay, there's somebody out there that is 7 years old and they really could have a passion for science in this specific arena. But they don't understand it.

And there's nobody in their life that can explain it to a 7-year-old. So my job right now is this camera's about to go on, even though this may go to 20 million people, I'm just talking to that 7-year-old, just that one 7-year-old is who I'm addressing. Ultimately what happens is if you get specific in this way, it's kind of like a vacuum, right? Like you got the vacuum hose and as you're cleaning up, everything around that hose gets pulled into it as well. It's not so broad.

It's very specific. The little hose on the vacuum, little corner cleaning hose on the vacuum. But it still pulls so many things around it. And it's the same thing. He might be speaking to a 7-year-old, but myself at 36, I'm still hooked on what he's saying.

Dustin Grinnell (00:28:52 --> 00:29:29)
Yeah. Bill Nye the Science Guy is such a great example. You know, I grew up on him and he made science, which could be technical, confusing, not very interesting, exciting. And yeah, I think it really helped get me into liking science. I remember every Friday afternoon my 6th grade teacher would wheel in the TV. And remember the, the best— the big, like, blocky TV that was, like, strapped down? Yeah, yeah, you, like, wheel it in and, uh, just wild. It's like, those should be in museums right now.

Anthony Thomas (00:29:29 --> 00:29:29)
Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (00:29:29 --> 00:30:35)
And, you know, I think it's interesting because he wasn't, like, a PhD-level scientist. He just had a bachelor's, and he But he was good at showbiz. He knew how to show up. And so as a vehicle of scientific information for laypeople, he was able to— I mean, the writing was accessible. The writing has to be accessible.

It can't be highly technical. But then he just brought this charisma. And one of the questions I wanted to ask you was, the big question here is, why is even being good on camera important? You know, and it's important. I think you said before, because if you don't present your ideas well, you can't even communicate them to a larger audience.

You can't get them into the world. Your influence is limited. And so in the case of Bill Nye, like, if he didn't have those abilities to communicate science so well in an entertaining way, we wouldn't be interested. So yeah, I guess like that's the big question. Like, why even learn this stuff?

Anthony Thomas (00:30:36 --> 00:35:05)
Like, why even know how to be effective on camera? That is the question, and you nailed it with the word charisma. Mm-hmm. So charisma is basically two parts. Charisma is one part competency.

How well do you know what you're talking about? Know the thing that you're talking about. And to use Bill Nye as an example, there are people who are higher degree holders in science than Bill Nye. But the other part of charisma from competency is your warmth. It's your ability to connect with people and not be stiff, right?

If somebody is, let's say you're, you're out at that coffee shop and someone strikes up conversation with you and let's say your dog just died. They strike up conversation. How, how's the day going? And you're 10 minutes ago, you just left your dog and, and your dog just passed away. And you're like, you're just lost, and you're like, man, you know, I just lost my dog.

My dog just passed away. And you're opening up to a complete stranger at the coffee shop about one of the darkest times of your life, and that person responds in a very stiff way, and they go, oh man, that sucks. That's not very warm. Versus think of like the motherly woman that's, oh my God, she's gonna give you a hug whether you like it or not, and Oh, you poor thing. I'm so sorry.

Let me get this coffee for you. That is warmth, right? That motherly thing, that is warmth. So when you combine competency and warmth, that's where you get charisma. You have somebody who really knows what they're talking about, and they're able to deliver in a way that connects with people on an emotional level.

You understand people, you understand different walks of life, you understand at least to some degree. You don't have to say, I know your life, I know what you've been through, but to be able to say enough that it's so relatable that you could say, man, I can only imagine what you're going through, but what is it that you need from me in this moment? What do you need from the world that would be helpful for you in this moment? And you have that caring, that nurturing aspect combined with your competency, your know-how. That's where you get charisma.

So why do you need to do this? Why do you need to be charismatic? Why do you need to develop this skill set on camera specifically? For one, everything that we do and are doing moving forward is it's driven by video. Everything is video.

Everything right now and moving forward is video, whether it's going to be AI video in the future and you have some bots and things like this, but it doesn't matter if you're a business owner and you need to market your business. You need to let your consumers, your potential customers know what you perform, how you perform it, and why all of your past customers are so satisfied. That message is a really important message because if you have a product or a service that helps people, genuinely helps people live a better life and have a better existence overall, it is your duty to let the world know that you are something that exists for them to consume and improve their lives. If you are somebody who you just have a wonderful message to share with the world, It's important that you have the skill set to deliver that message as far and wide as you possibly can and keep improving that skill set. Because if you're going to do service to this world and make this place a better place, and what you have to share is really important and impactful in some way, then it matters that you are grabbing attention, that you are able to communicate it in such a way that people can not only connect to it, that warmth we talked about, but also They trust it because you are competent in your message and what it is that you're delivering.

So if you think like, oh, I don't really need this, then maybe you should reconsider, like, what are you doing with life? What are you— what's your purpose here? And I'm not saying everybody should go and record video and do all this stuff, but if you want to build or grow, or if you have a purpose in life at all, you don't have to be the front man of a business or any sort of organization to still spread a good word. And do it in an impactful way. You can be employee number 8,000 at a company, but if you really believe in that company's mission and what they're doing, the organization that you're a part of, it's important for you to be able to communicate in a way that people can connect to and be interested in, and also gather enough details that you leave them with a better taste in their mouth about you or the organization than before they even met you or came across your video.

Dustin Grinnell (00:35:05 --> 00:37:03)
Let's take a tough example. So I want to think about my dad, for example, and what you said about, you know, video is king. And in this era, you need to know how to communicate your ideas effectively on camera because it is so ubiquitous. So like, you take my dad, it's like he's been— he's like a veteran general contractor. He's been in business for 30 years up in northern New Hampshire.

The guy hasn't even been within 2 miles of a camera, apart from an iPhone. And so total novice. The other thing too is this gets to a psychological block. He is the opposite of a showman. He doesn't want to be boastful.

He's not a hype guy. He's a little bit quiet. Oh, I would say reserved. He's not quiet. He's outgoing, but he's reserved, you know.

He's from Northern New Hampshire, for God's sakes. Like, the winters are like traumatic, you know. Oh yeah, it's just a colder attitude, you know. It's— it ain't LA, you know. Yeah.

And psychologically, he's very far from show business and camera work and— yeah, and entertainment, the entertainment industry, right? Guy just builds decks. Replaces roofs, builds spec houses, goes home, and day's over. So like, if someone said, all right, Dad, we need to make a 5-minute video of you presenting your services, where do you start with that guy? Like, like mindset?

Oh yeah, physical gestures, uh, facial expression, fucking, you know, the breathing you do before the camera starts. And then of course the psychological block of who gives a shit, I don't want to make this stuff for the masses. Social media is like a scourge on humanity. This is what you're dealing with here. So like, let's take him as a worst case scenario and just like play him as a case study for a second.

Anthony Thomas (00:37:03 --> 00:42:01)
'Cause I think there's a lot more like him. Yeah. Oh, there's loads. There's loads. I love this.

I love this game. So the first thing is still the first thing. Why are you making this? And my advice here is gonna be different from, hey, be charismatic on camera and things like that. That's a skill.

That's a craft to develop for sure if you wanna be on camera. The first thing that I would start with your dad, this is more so on the business side of things, is why do you want to create video in the first place? And for a guy like your dad, it's most likely to generate more business and to convert prospects into clients. In that case, it's not a requirement that your dad is on camera. It's not a requirement that anybody is in fact on camera.

In the home services space, you can just show your work. And then you can have some script that you typed up. If he's like a journaling man, you know, by hand, he could just write out a script of like, here's a question. What was the problem this client had and how did you solve it? And he goes, oh, they had this gradient where their elevated deck was on and it was gonna just drop with the next heavy rain.

And so what we did is we drilled in pillars this deep and we put in this and so on, so on, so on. He never has to show his face on camera. He doesn't even have to do the voiceover of this because you could type in a script. There's plenty of technology now that will automatically even— I'm pretty sure Instagram will just automatically— you can select a voiceover of something you write in and it'll do it. And he's never on camera at all.

You don't need the charisma and all that stuff. So the first thing is why? What's the purpose of this video that you're imagining you need to create? If it's to generate clients, you don't have to be on camera to do that. Now, in the case, because again, this exercise is how do we get that person up to speed, right?

How do we get them up to speed? I think it's really important to not get good at something you dislike. So don't get good at something you hate. If your dad is a guy that's like, ah, I hate being on camera, I just absolutely despise it, that's great. Who in your company or even your friend group, or who do you know that loves to be on camera?

That you would trust to present your company in a way that you would like, to present your work in a way that you go, that is so much better than I myself could have done, and they're presenting you better. Now, if you have an interest in being good on camera, that's different from like a guy— I imagine your dad has zero interest in being on camera, and he doesn't have to be for business and everything. He does not have to be. Even if he did have a big message he wanted to get out to the world, it does not have to be him on camera. And I know plenty of people— I've watched it happen— where people are so successful in the home trade business where they never show their face, but they'll film things like guys that work under the house.

Okay, here's a video, here's the plumbing, here's the pipe, here's the issue, and they fix it and everything. And they're never seen on camera. Their face is never seen, but you see the work that they do and you're amazed by it. Maybe that's his angle. So put those out there first.

But let's just say your dad really does want to be good at this and he goes, I'm gonna take this challenge on. And, uh, I'm no LA guy. I don't wanna boast or anything like that. I'm a big fan of gratitude and dishing out gratitude to others as opposed to I'm so cool, everybody look at me. So I would encourage your dad to say, hey, for each video that you're about to make on this, like, lead with gratitude.

What are you thankful or appreciative of in working with this specific client or whatever it was? And when you lead with that, the camera, oddly enough, internally, you don't feel like the camera is pointing at you anymore. You're now pointing the camera figuratively at whoever or whatever you're being grateful for. And it, all that fear of being on camera and stuff kind of doesn't go away, but it definitely shrinks down because it's not spotlighting yourself anymore. So if you've ever met somebody in a conversation who's really good at deflecting, You ask 'em a question and then all of a sudden you're the one talking forever and ever and you go, wait a minute, wait a minute.

I asked them the question. They're really good at deflecting and turning things onto you. Maybe they answer the question in a way that's kind of simple, but then you're the one rambling and rambling. That deflection can be done pretty strategically for somebody that wants to be on camera in the way of being grateful. So in the business, he wants to get new clients.

We're gonna start with testimonials. I'm going to say, hey, here's a really great testimonial of a client that I just worked with. And before I even read this testimonial to you guys, I just got to tell you, they were so lovely to work with. I went over to their house and you never know what to expect when you're going to chat with somebody, go into a new client. I went over to give them an estimate.

I ended up sitting down with them. They made me some homemade lemonade and we sat there and drank as I covered the estimate. Here's the testimonial they left, and they're just wonderful people. That warmth and that being genuine that way and appreciative that way, it's going to come off authentic. I don't care who you are.

Dustin Grinnell (00:42:01 --> 00:42:33)
Like, that goes through camera. But what if he wouldn't do that? If he wouldn't? Not do that. It would not be warm. He would have a 30-minute conversation about mountain biking and hiking in the Whites and stuff like that. But he's not going to be warm. He's not going to be approachable. He's not going to use words like lovely. He just, he's probably going to be ungrateful, you know? Okay. But he's a good guy. So like, how do you just take a cold, competent person and make them?

Dustin Grinnell (00:42:33 --> 00:42:33)
Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (00:42:33 --> 00:42:40)
So how do you start there? Because I feel like most people are just ungrateful and not warm and like—

Anthony Thomas (00:42:40 --> 00:45:46)
But his warmth Very low. Yeah. The warm— the character we're working with here. Yeah. Yeah.

So his competency, he's— the guy knows his stuff, but is he— his bedside manner, is it warm? Is it— it's not really there. So what do we do with a guy like that? I think a wonderful exercise with this, especially if he's about to press record, if this is something he wants to do, is before you start talking about whatever it is you aim to talk about in this video, start talking about mountain biking or hiking or things like that, that you are passionate, that do light you up, because you're going to just be in a better energy altogether. Even if you're not a warm person and you're not, you know, the gratitude and butterflies and all these things, you will still present a lot more warmly if you start talking about something that you could— I always think of it like this: what could you at any moment give a TED Talk about without preparing?

Like, I say, hey, you have a TED Talk, it starts right now. What is that thing? And that's usually what people are really passionate about, or even if they're not passionate, they just spent so much time on or around that they could light up and talk about the thing, right? So for him, before he presses record, let's talk about something that he's really into. Let's talk about that.

And then when we roll into the business side of things and like, let's talk about, hey, here's what we do for clients and so on and so on. You're in a much better space physically because your physiology changes entirely when you're talking about what you love. And then when that carries over to the next topic that might normally be dull or dry or stiff, you're at least going to enter it in a much warmer state than you otherwise would have. And typically if you lead with warmth, especially early on, and then you flow into competency and being more cold, as long as you lead with warmth, you kind of get people hooked in and they trust you enough because your charisma was good to start to where they're like, okay, he's good enough. And now he's just getting into the, details of things.

That's why I still feel that warmth from him, even though he's not presenting as warm. So the start of it is very important. Like, if you spend any time at all researching successful videos, how to make a good YouTube video or anything like this, everything is about the thumbnail and the hook. That's the opening of the video, the first 30 seconds and all that stuff. The same is true with any video type.

Dustin Grinnell (00:45:46 --> 00:47:14)
I think of like NPR correspondents who are from like the Northeast or something, but they're presenting a story from someone from Colombia, and they say Colombia, you know, and it's like they probably don't even speak Spanish, you know, so Cut that shit out, you know? Yeah, it's like that's affected. That's affected work. That's affectation. That's trying to put on airs or something.

And it's just so sniffed out, like, instantly on radio and TV, you know, it's just so obvious. And I think one of the things for me is like, man, I just don't want to be affected. Like, I don't want my work to smell like shit. I don't want to be a bullshitter. I want to just be true and natural and real.

Anthony Thomas (00:47:14 --> 00:50:54)
So this is kind of— I touched on it a little bit earlier, where if you can behave as if it were impossible to be punished, and the affectation you're talking about, You've gotta understand, some people really actually like that. Like, some people love that effort, especially, you know, a lot of Americans who are not so cultured. They're like, oh, this person, like, I love how you went in there with that bit of culture. You know, some people love that. It's just not your flavor, right?

So understanding that alone is gonna be helpful, that no matter who you are, no matter what you do, there's gonna be people who just despise your work, whatever it is that you do, no matter how much love and passion and everything you put into it. I've heard a 33% will hate it, 33% will love it, 33% don't give a shit. I would argue that it's probably a larger that just don't give a shit, and it's probably a smaller number that actually do give a shit. And I think if you could just get comfortable understanding that my work is not for these people, That's fine. Like, when I create, I know that there's going to be people who are roasting me, who are clowning me, whether it's in the comments or directly or just in their own heads.

But that's not my business. My business is the people that I'm connecting to, that I'm trying to connect with. So you don't want to do things like affectation and Colombia and things like this where it's like, okay, so that's not your work. You don't do that, right? Other people that see that and respect that are going to love that about you.

And that's great. These are the people that you're targeting. These are the people that are your audience, your community, and so on. But in the grand scheme of this, how do you go, I just wanna be authentic, you know, I don't wanna come off as some sort of like a fraud, like I, like I'm forcing it and I just, I wanna do justice to the content rather than try to build this audience because people like the way that I present or whatever it may be, right? Because you, you're someone who has a high level of competency in my experience with you have a very high level of competency.

And typically people that are highly competent are so much less concerned about the warmth or how it's presented. It's like, no, no, no, no, this is the info. And the info is king. This is so important. The data here, what I'm talking about is what— it doesn't matter how I present it.

It's what I'm talking about. But one of the people that I would point to who's built great success over recent years that understands this very thoroughly is Andrew Huberman. Dr. Andrew Huberman, one of the larger podcasts out there, Stanford scientist, neuroscientist. And if you're not familiar with him, he has tattoos up and down his arms, right? It's pretty much his whole body's tattooed.

Anytime you see him presenting anywhere in person, he's typically wearing a black long sleeve button-up shirt and it's buttoned up to where it's very plain. The whole reason for him is he's like, I want people to get connected to the content, the information, and not be distracted by my tattoos or anything like that. He understands that. He feels the same way, but he understands how this works, right? Especially he's a neuroscientist, so he gets it.

Yeah. But he's highly competent. He also, he's a lot more warm than people at his level, typical people at his level of competence. But he understands it, right? He's like, I could just be me.

Dustin Grinnell (00:50:54 --> 00:51:28)
Yeah, it makes me think of like the Charlie Rose interview show where it was just oak table, black screen behind it, just two people, and it went from face to face because it was— this is all about the in-depth conversation and who they stand for and what they are. And no frills, man. We do because we don't want the viewer to go off the scent. We just want them to stay on the interview. So for him too, isn't it sort of like a nondescript background and it's closed up on him and it's just like, yeah, there's nothing distracting you from his message, right?

Anthony Thomas (00:51:28 --> 00:51:46)
And Lex Fridman is similar, right? Lex Fridman, he presents— I had so many people tell me, oh, you've got to listen to Lex, you've got to listen to Lex. This is years ago and I was like, I tried it for like 10 minutes and I could not do it. Yeah, like, why is everybody telling me to do this? Because he's so stiff.

Dustin Grinnell (00:51:46 --> 00:51:57)
Yeah. And it's like, come on, man. Like, he's just a bot, you know? He's just like, yeah. And it's also like, are you— did you think out your questions? Like, can I put you on 3x speed or something?

Anthony Thomas (00:51:57 --> 00:52:35)
Yes. Yeah, that was it. That was my experience. So he's highly competent, very highly competent. His warmth, Part of it is culturally, right?

He grew up in, in Russia, I believe, is where he was raised. And the culture there is far less warm presenting than American culture, generally speaking. But the start of that for me was like, oh, I can't do this. He did not hook me with the warmth to start out with. So it took me forcing myself to go back to his content and be like, all right, everybody that— these people that I trust their judgment is telling me to listen to this guy.

Dustin Grinnell (00:52:35 --> 00:52:35)
Terrific.

Anthony Thomas (00:52:35 --> 00:52:44)
And so what I started to see some of his warmth, and it presents different than what my meter of warmth typically picks up on.

Dustin Grinnell (00:52:44 --> 00:53:10)
Yeah, he sort of failed the sniff test, but with time, you kind of learned how to appreciate him. So what if he had been the other way around? What if he had taken this advice and tried to pump up the energy and the excitement? That wouldn't have been him, though. And so while he might have been a little bit more effective at the start, he probably would have felt inauthentic and therefore would have been ineffective in a way.

Anthony Thomas (00:53:10 --> 00:57:39)
So if he's forcing that warmth, yes. But if he's talking about something that he's passionate about, if he's talking jiu-jitsu or robotics or whatever, right, those are things he's very passionate— he holds a black belt in jiu-jitsu. If he's talking about these things that he just loves and knows, and these are topics that he doesn't need to prepare to give his instant TED Talk, If he started out with that and his warmth— again, I do not encourage being fake ever. In fact, one of my core principles in anything that I do, any video that I share, any of my content that you see, if I'm sharing a product or a service, it's because I absolutely love it. I had a wonderful experience with it.

I love it. I'm not going to have somebody pay me. I don't care if they want to pay me ad space or anything, because to me, the one thing I will not sell for $1 billion is my word. My voice, my word. That's something I will not do, right?

If I build all these other businesses, you want to buy me out of my modeling for $1 billion, I'd sell it in a heartbeat, right? My word though, not something I would sell. So I'm not encouraging anybody to be inauthentic, but if he, let's say, led with a lot more warm opening because he was just talking about jiu-jitsu and his journey in that and his passion and things like that, and he hooked me more with the warmth, What you're doing then is you're giving people a chance to stay around long enough to get, then get hooked by the content without emotion. So if Lex hooked me with his warmth to start out with, I could be like, I don't know. First thing I'm looking at is like, do I like this guy?

Do I trust, right? There's no like trust. I don't know this person. So Do I like him? I don't know yet.

Let's find out. And in that first, like I said, the first 10 minutes of me listening, I was like, nah, I don't like the guy, right? I just didn't. He didn't capture me in that. So I don't even get to the point to trust him because I didn't give it long enough to be like, wow, he's very intelligent and he is well thought out in these things and he is well explored and highly knowledgeable and highly competent.

So the idea here is you hook people with the warmth, Regardless of what you're talking about, if you can open with something you're very passionate about, then people are going to see not only how warm you can be, but also they're going to see the genuine, real, honest you in that moment, right? It doesn't matter what you're talking about. People love to see someone talk about things they're passionate about, regardless of the topic. I'll give you an example. The other day I sold a chair on Facebook Marketplace.

The person came over, and I had a friend of mine that was on the way over. They came over, bought the chair, quick little small talk, like, oh, what are you interested in? Blah, blah, blah. They were like, oh, you have a YouTube channel. That's so cool.

I've been thinking about doing that because I am a Dungeons and Dragons master. And so I was thinking about doing a YouTube channel. I've never played D&D. I don't know much about it at all. It's not a high interest point for me, but my friend that was on the way over, I know he's been playing D&D for years.

He loves it. He has a great time. He's still presently actively playing multiple games. So I was like, dude, you gotta meet my friend. Make this connection.

For the next 3 hours, we sat out in front of my house while those two were talking Dungeons Dragons, and I knew nothing about it. Even as I'm listening, I'm like, they're speaking English, they're using words that I know, these words, and I have no idea what they're talking about. But I was so hooked because they were both so passionate about what they were talking about. And the case is true across the board. We love to see and listen to people talk about things they're passionate about, even if we don't have a clue about it.

Dustin Grinnell (00:57:39 --> 00:58:48)
It's good advice too for like content creators, right? Like just talk about something you really, really like. Yeah. You know, it made me think of Neil deGrasse Tyson. You know, that guy loves space.

That guy loves physics. He loves cosmology. And he also loves Carl Sagan. And Carl Sagan is who he learned from. And Carl Sagan is one of the best science communicators that ever lived, right?

And that guy thought the— the exercise of thinking about humans' existence in a vast and infinite universe was a useful character-building exercise. And you could tell through every word that he delivered, he's just in awe of the message. And there was a gravitas to him. And it's like, how much did that guy pump himself up before camera? Who the hell knows?

There's probably a documentary on it. I would love to watch it. But really, think about it. He just loved the subject matter. The guy just loved it.

Anthony Thomas (00:58:48 --> 01:00:00)
If you can't give a good answer to yourself that is honest and truthful and convinces yourself that this is a good idea to then move forward with it, you're probably not in the right area for yourself. A Carl Sagan that's presenting on NBA basketball, like, what are we talking here? I don't know if he, if he was a hooper. He might have been a hooper, but let's assume he wasn't, right? A Carl Sagan that's gonna present on basketball is not going to be the same Carl Sagan that's presenting on space, on science.

And frankly, I learned of time-space dilation from Carl Sagan, and I was like, this is amazing. I'm so hooked. And I'm not even a scientist. I'm very low-level knowledge about about a lot of stuff really, but this is particularly in science. And he taught me so much in this stuff that it was like, I probably had been exposed to this many other times, but nobody ever hooked me like he did.

Dustin Grinnell (01:00:00 --> 01:00:02)
Followers, clicks, you know?

Anthony Thomas (01:00:02 --> 01:03:30)
Status. Yeah. In my opinion, that's, you're working in the complete wrong direction and you're not gonna last. You're gonna be going up up against the people. If you're trying to just trend hop, you're going up against people who have been living in that specific arena a lot longer than you have and are going to be around a lot longer after you.

They're far more in-depth knowledge than what you have because you just popped into this and you read a couple books and you watched some videos or whatever. That's where I think, like, you're going about it all wrong. Everything you're going to create, before you even get on camera, before you get on the microphone, ask yourself, why am I doing this? Because if you are really passionate about something, you will put up with and endure so much chaos and so much pain and so much discomfort and so much agony and so much awkwardness versus trying to build something successful is the wrong way to start, in my opinion. For example, if you go back on my YouTube channel and you look at— I still have a bunch of videos up there from however long ago, and I just got to a point where I'm like, I just need to be creating.

I know this is gonna suck. And I have a lot of videos on there that are trash. And I'll go back into those occasionally and look and like, man, we've come a long way. But the idea is the stuff that I was talking about, I at least passed the checklist of like, am I passionate about the thing that I'm about to speak about? And that makes it easier to just hop into.

And I've said for years with modeling and acting, people are like, oh, how? Because I've lasted way longer than most people in this industry. Most people, the average career span of a model is like a year and 3 months, and I'm over a decade into this, right? And so people are like, man, like, how long are you going to do this? And my answer is, I will do this as long as I enjoy it.

And that's just it. Like, There are some days that aren't so enjoyable and some that aren't, but as a general rule, I love doing this stuff. I love having people who have ideas and teams that come together to create this idea, to present this ad in a certain way. And I love to be a piece to that puzzle that I go, ah, I can take these ideas and I can be the physical embodiment of that for you guys to connect with your potential client or your consumer in a way that they just really resonate with. I love that.

If I were doing something else, like let's say if I had to be a math teacher, math is not a strong suit for me. That would be tough for me. And maybe I could try and, oh, math is on the rise and that's the trend, but that's not my passion. I'm gonna give up way sooner than the next person and my why isn't really there. It's not the same.

Before you even press record, what are you doing this for? What are you doing it for? Is it because you're passionate about this and you want to share it with other passionate people? Great. It's going to be a lot easier for you to be your own individual self on camera, and you don't have to be this— I don't think charisma is big and boisterous and out there.

Don't think charisma is that. Warmth and competency. It's a blend of warmth and competency. I've met so many people who are really warm. Think of like a really warm cowboy.

Not someone that's big out there and everything. Like, cowboys notoriously are pretty well subdued, and they're, you know, just right here, yes ma'am, yes sir, and it's just right here. But that's— they can still convey warmth really well without being big and boisterous. So don't think that charisma is this big thing. Charisma is just you're able to connect and be warm and genuine.

Dustin Grinnell (01:03:30 --> 01:05:42)
Charisma is not faking it. One thing I liked that you said a little bit earlier was And even looking at your own work, you've noticed an evolution going from trash to high quality, right? And I think that's just like, that's really honest, right? It takes reps, it takes experience, it takes layering on those tips and techniques. You get better with time and practice, period, right?

Is there anything else? But it's really hard. Like, I think in our last conversation we talked about talent, right? What is talent? And I think we both live in the same space of what talent is like.

Yes, there's some intrinsic ability, but there's also like, you can learn craft and skills and those things can be mastered. But like, one of the things that is interesting is like you talked about watching Lex Fridman and you're like, ah, I don't know. It was something intuitive, something instinctual. You're like, I don't know. I don't— he's not for me, right?

That experience of being not for you, what is that? You know, like this is a viewer who shows up and they don't know you. They're cold, right? Just like a reader might approach my work. They come to the page cold, right?

So you either tell the story well or you don't. So there's parts of your humanity that you really kind of can't learn. You know, you're either— you got a little charisma or you don't, or you've got a little cool factor or you don't. You have that impossible X factor, you don't. There will never be another Robin Williams.

There'll never be another Chris Farley. Leonardo DiCaprio, I have no fucking idea how he does what he does. Um, I just rewatched that scene from There Will Be Blood with Daniel Day-Lewis, and he's being interrogated by the priest, and he says, "I've abandoned my boy." There's just a complete galaxy of complication in his face in that situation because he really hates that priest, and he really hates being at the receiving end of all this propaganda. But he also did abandon his boy. Then he also does that, and it's like, How'd you do that, man?

Anthony Thomas (01:05:42 --> 01:06:03)
You're so right. You are so right. Some people got it and some have to work a little bit harder. This is the way that I think about this. I want you to, for a second, if you're listening to this and you yourself as well, Dustin, think back to elementary school, right? When you're 6, 7, 8. Years old, who was the coolest kid in your class?

Dustin Grinnell (01:06:04 --> 01:06:50)
Do you remember? Yeah, probably Evan, because he was, uh, sarcastic and he was kind of rebellious, and— but he was also attractive. Like, people wanted to, like, be around him, and girls wanted to date him, and he also had a kind of quick wit. And now I think he's in prison. So, you know, not really sure what— he had some trouble with poker, uh, then he had some trouble with working in a restaurant and skimming money off of the restaurant's profits. And then, uh, and I think it escalated into just outright, uh, you know, grand larceny. And so I don't know what we want to say about that, but he was a cool kid, you know.

Anthony Thomas (01:06:50 --> 01:07:04)
Yeah, well, I think you'd be surprised because I have a very similar story of the cool kid in elementary school, and I think a lot of people have this, like, the cool kid in elementary school is like, that didn't end up so well.

Dustin Grinnell (01:07:04 --> 01:07:12)
It's a stereotype in movies, right? They're the people who become the drunk at the local bar. They never leave town, you know, they become—

Anthony Thomas (01:07:12 --> 01:09:22)
Like, those require a similar skill set, knowing people. Like, if you look at thieves, pickpockets, and everything that They read people really well because they can target really well. A targeter is what they are. They, ah, I could look at this person and I could tell you all kinds of things about them instantly and be able to— they're a mark. That's right.

Yeah. Someone at 5, 6, 7 years old that's doing that, and they are the cool kid at that time, they're probably not being checked by their family, by their parents, by their circle, whoever their community is, and they're getting away with it more and more and more. And That being unchecked over time lands to Evan in prison, right? Sorry, I didn't mean to like throw you under the bus here, but hey, yo, you know what? Honestly, everybody's got their own journey.

Evan, best of luck to you. Much love. And hopefully you turn things around and you start crushing it. Amen. Put those things to good use and connect with the world.

But would you rather have that journey or that, yeah, you know, I was kind of non-notable growing up and nobody really knew me or anything like that. And I wasn't really charismatic or anything, but here I am in this space where I want to develop charisma. I just spent so much time reading and in books, and I learned so much about all these things, and now I can give the TED Talk. My problem is I'm not engaging. I'm not warm enough.

I have a high competency, but I just wasn't born with that charisma. I don't think you're born with it. I think what happens is you either get your charisma checked because you're— you know, my 3-year-old right now, he knows how to give his kind of flirty eyes or try to make mom and dad laugh when he's a little bit edge of getting, you know, in trouble or whatever. He's testing these boundaries right now. If I don't notice that and I don't check it, he's going to grow up and he's going to go the prison route, right?

Dustin Grinnell (01:09:22 --> 01:09:39)
But then again, we have a— we have an actual con man potentially in the White House right now. So, you know, there's a— there's another way to go. I mean, there are con men who can become successful until they are really, really devastatingly unsuccessful.

Anthony Thomas (01:09:39 --> 01:09:45)
Yeah. Yes. And you know the term con man. Do you know the root of this? Like where it originated? Confidence man?

Dustin Grinnell (01:09:45 --> 01:09:45)
Correct. Confidence man.

Anthony Thomas (01:09:46 --> 01:13:43)
You have to have a level of warmth for sure, but you have to have at least some level of competency to present in a way that it's like— like, I'll tell you right now, there's information. If you go, if you watch any of my content, I know I know a little bit about a few things and I try to share things and I'm constantly trying to learn and all that stuff, but I am not smart by my standard, right? I, I don't have a high level of intelligence by my standard. And in fact, even in this realm of charisma on camera, there are people who are so much better and more knowledgeable and very skilled in their ability to communicate this than I am. But you shouldn't, in my opinion, stop pursuing something because you aren't already the best at it, or because you see someone else who's number one at it.

You have a different audience, you have a different ability to connect with people in a different way. Just because I have a different life than person who's at the top of that industry doesn't mean that I can't connect with people in a very impactful way.. And when we're talking confidence and being a con man, I don't suggest conning anybody. I suggest being authentic and just be you. Like, don't BS it.

I'm not the science guy. You wanna talk to me about science? You wanna talk to me about math? These aren't my strong suits. You wanna talk to me about psychology?

I know a little bit about that. And sociology, right? I studied these in, in college and I still pursue it and I love these areas. And like your writings, are the perfect blend for me of some science that I, I understand at a basic level and how it connects with humanity and how people interact with each other and get put into certain situations where it's all about the incentive structure that drives that individual as it clashes with their values. And that to me, I love.

I don't know a ton at a very deep high level about that. I, you know, no PhD. I have my bachelor's in sociology, and I studied psychology in that route as well. There's people PhD and beyond that would understand very deeply. I'm not that guy.

And they probably have a YouTube channel out there, and they're sharing information and all that. But I have a life experience that's unique to anybody else, and I share based on my unique blend of my life. And I connect with people who have some crossover with these things. And the way that I feel you connect with people is by being real, because nobody can be you. Like, I can't beat Dustin Grenell at being Dustin.

I can't beat you at that. But I can beat you at being Anthony Thomas. I just have to be me. You can't be me better than I could be me. I don't care how good of an actor you are.

You were talking Leo, and, you know, we're talking Denzel and all this stuff. The greatest actors of all time can't be the individual they're portraying better than that individual is. So the way that you get through all of this is figure out for yourself, how can I just be me on camera? And as you do that, don't be comfortable in the level that you're at. Like you mentioned, my evolution of video and as I present on camera and everything like that.

I'm not the same guy I was a year ago, and I don't present the same way on camera as I did a year ago. And my aim is that a year from now I can say that exact same thing because I'm still trying to improve in all of these areas. So wherever you are right now, be authentic, tell the truth, and as you progress, just try to improve a little bit at a time. Every single time you press record or get in front of the camera or get in front of a microphone, or just get in front of a person or a mirror or by yourself in your room. Try to be a little bit better every single time so that you don't have to fake somebody better.

Dustin Grinnell (01:13:46 --> 01:15:06)
You just become somebody better. Mm-hmm. We talked about maybe someone like, like my dad who doesn't have any on-camera experience and, and doesn't want any. You'd have a lot of notes for that guy. You know, who do you have no notes for?

Like who's doing it? Spectacularly, who's your hero or idol or someone you look up to? Because to lead into this question, I thought about Conan O'Brien in the Academy Awards and his hosting style. And it's like, that guy is just unreal. Just like right here to here, like just his face, his whole face is animated with like irony and sarcasm.

And he just, I think, Maybe you can weigh in on this. He's just a complete fucking goof, and he has embraced that, you know? Yeah, he's like, I'm a goof, man, and it's quirky as hell, but that's my voice. Like, if you sat with a guy— and there is actually a documentary of him being himself, essentially— and he's just a goof. He's awesome.

Anthony Thomas (01:15:06 --> 01:17:28)
Vinh. Last name G-I-A-N-G. He's an Aussie, but I believe he's Vietnamese, uh, by heritage. And he coaches and teaches public speaking and how to use your voice in a much better way. This is a guy, for me, if you follow him on Instagram or on YouTube, he's got loads of content free that you can— especially if you're a newbie or anything like that— you can watch this.

And he's a guy, like I was mentioning, way better than I am, like worlds away, way better than I am. And he used to be a magician, so he was performing in front of people live and all these things. And there's a lot of skillset developed there. He's also, I mean, he's a keynote speaker. He goes and speaks around the world.

He does workshops all over the world. The guy is incredible. He's fun, he's engaging, he's entertaining. He does excellent examples of What do I do? Like, he has, I think probably the most valuable thing that you can consume from him are his Q&As.

And then it's not like a Q&A session, it's just at one of his seminars or something, somebody raises their hand, asks a question, and he answers it. Because there's real people who are having the same challenges that you have, or your dad would have, or anybody would have that wants to be a better presenter. They're asking the questions that we would all ask at some stage of our evolution or another. And then he addresses it and he addresses it in a way that shows you, for one, he knows what he's talking about. And it's not just because he read some books and all this stuff.

He has so many reps under his belt over the years and he messes up still, as anybody really good will, you're going to mess up. But one of the things that's really useful for him, he's like, hey, if you're speaking and you stumble on something or you mess up, he's like, the more you draw attention to your mess up, the more it's going to remove the whole experience for your audience, because they're going to focus on that too. So if I slip up, then just go back. I slip up and you just roll over it. Don't pay— oh, oops, sorry, I just stuttered.

Dustin Grinnell (01:17:28 --> 01:17:39)
Journalists have a good thing where they say, I should say. So if they say like Menadnock and then that's a mess up, they should say Meninock, I should say. And then it's done, it's over with, they put it to bed.

Anthony Thomas (01:17:39 --> 01:18:08)
And so he has so many things like that. So Vin Jiang would be my guy. That's like, oh man, he's, he's king. He's awesome. And he's— there's an episode of Diary of a CEO that just came out, I think yesterday or 2 days ago that I gotta watch, uh, because that's my favorite podcast, Diary of a CEO.

Cool. Uh, with Stephen Bartlett. So he's on there. I haven't watched it yet, but I, I'm certain it's an amazing watch or listen. So he's definitely up there for me.

Dustin Grinnell (01:18:08 --> 01:18:08)
Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (01:18:08 --> 01:18:33)
So it's like, um, I get the sense that Conan O'Brien is who he is on camera is who he is like in private, but it's, it's a pumped up version for sure. But it's like he's a goof, and maybe sometime in his career he— someone told him, hey, let's like, let's tamp down the goofiness, man. But he, I think, just leaned into it. Like, yeah, you know, and that's why we love him, because he's like really—

Anthony Thomas (01:18:33 --> 01:19:16)
we think he's being himself. Yeah, yeah. So I agree with you entirely. My question to you is, do you think that when he's getting on camera or on stage or anything like this, when Conan O'Brien is about to go, let's say, in front of an audience or in front of the camera, do you think that he has feelings of fear of being canceled? Cancelled? That's a very specific thing. Like when you— when you're watching him, do you have any area in the back of your mind? You're like, oh, he's kind of holding back. Like he's— oh man, he wants to say something, but he's not really letting that go. 'cause he's— maybe it's something that's inappropriate or it might get him canceled. Do you have any feeling of that when you watch Conan O'Brien at all?

Dustin Grinnell (01:19:16 --> 01:19:47)
No, there's an element that's very fearless to him. But I think that's the comedian's role in society anyways. Like, they're supposed to define the boundaries and they're supposed to push past them. What is appropriate? What is not appropriate? And then the best find the boundary and then go past it. So then we could say, oh, that's where the boundary was, right? So that's why they lean into all the controversial things that are in the culture wars, whether it's trans rights or gay rights or— and so on and so forth. They'll just go right at it, you know.

Anthony Thomas (01:19:47 --> 01:20:52)
And I, and I think that fearlessness is the job of the comedian, I think. Yeah, I agree with you. So with Conan, his example, I think that he does not operate on like fear base. He's not going, okay, go out here, don't say this, don't say that, don't do this, don't do that. I think he goes out and he is just genuinely him. Now, the difference that you'll see is it's audience size dependent. So if you want to see big boisterous Conan, that should be coupled with a big crowd or a big audience. If you want to see more subdued Conan, it's going to be more one-on-one. So you amplify your personality based on the audience size. Because it would be really weird if, if I was just, you know, if I'm, if I'm talking to you like one-on-one, I'm gonna kind of present like this, right? Like, yeah, I'm engaging and stuff, but I'm not like huge massive gestures. But if I were at playing at a concert hall, that's what I should do for the people all the way in the back.

Dustin Grinnell (01:20:52 --> 01:21:00)
It's like fill the room, right? That's what the actors, like, uh, stage actors are— they want to talk to like the end of the room.

Anthony Thomas (01:21:00 --> 01:24:43)
Is it? Yes, yes, exactly. And if— and that's different. Again, a stage actor, even that, a stage actor in a room of 100 versus 100,000, they should in theory present differently. You're bigger, you play to the size of your audience in that sense, right?

So I think Conan does a couple things. One, he's just very authentically him. And over the years, if you go, well, you know, especially when cancel culture was like at its peak, was he doing the same thing? Was he still— was he tiptoeing, walking on eggshells as so many comedians were? But I think if you look at any late night host, you're going to see a couple of things.

One, not their first rodeo. They have more reps in than almost anybody else you could see out there. That's just it. Just reps on reps on reps. I can't hammer that home enough here.

So that's one thing. Another thing is if Conan were to try to go out and be Jay Leno. Do you think that he would be that successful? Because there was already Jay Leno, and Jay Leno does Jay Leno better than anybody. It's the same thing.

Like, I can't go and be Dustin better than Dustin can be. So what you're left with is either be some fake poor level of something, or just be authentically you and let the cards fall where they fall. If you behave in such a way that— like, I try to think when I get on camera, and I do this when I have my podcast guests, one of the things that I cover before we start recording is I say, One of the biggest regrets that people have when they record a podcast or when they record content is when they hear it back and they hear themselves say something that they don't actually believe. That's one of the biggest regrets people have. So I want you to behave in this recording, in our podcast session, I want you to behave as if it's literally impossible for you to be punished in any sort of way.

Individually, by society, or any imagination of the word punishment. So behave as if it's impossible to be punished. And then if you want something edited out, just tell me like, hey, I said this, can we kill that? Or whatever, right? But you have to be authentic if you're really going to connect with people, unless you are a con man.

And even a con man, it's like you go to sleep at night, do you feel connected? Do you feel like, man, I'm really bonding with people? Or do you feel like, yeah, I got that hustle? You know, I hustled them. So, so, yeah, but again, again, even to the con man or con men or women out there, before you start recording, before you press the thing— yeah, let's not leave Elizabeth Holmes out, a con woman.

Yeah, yeah. So before you even start, like, why am I doing this? Is it to con people? Okay, well, get your con on, get in that headset. But like, if you're like, I really want to connect with people, I'm really enjoy this message or whatever it is that I'm going to share.

Be authentically you in a way that you go, it's impossible for someone to punish me. And but that punishment can mean nobody can make fun of me. Nobody can say, oh, your stutter on camera or on the microphone, or point to any of my so-called flaws. Act as if it were impossible to be punished and then let your real self shine through, and you're going to find that you connect so much better with people because Like you said, man, you just feel like Conan is authentic when you watch him. You're like, he's just Conan.

Dustin Grinnell (01:24:43 --> 01:25:48)
There's a new movie out there called A Complete Unknown. It's about Bob Dylan's origin story, played by Timothée Chalamet. And I actually haven't seen it yet, but I did see a quote that is in it. And what Timothée Chalamet's character says is, to keep someone engaged while on stage, you have to be kind of a freak. And I thought about that.

I actually want to get your take on that. The word freak has a negative connotation, but what does he mean by that? Yeah, well, there's something— it's not put in the most positive light, but there's something to that, man. There's some people you just can't take your eyes off of. I don't know, Freddie Mercury when he's doing Somebody to Love.

Have fun, like, doing anything else but watching the screen for 3 and a half minutes. Like, it's just so engaging. He's so into it. He's so powerful. He's a— he's kind of a freak, you know?

Anthony Thomas (01:25:48 --> 01:29:37)
It's like I my own live Nat Geo at home watching these, these animals. So what comes to mind for me is this. If I were to say, hey, we're gonna go swing by an elementary school and you're just on the way to, again, we're gonna use a coffee shop. We're just walking to a coffee shop. And what comes to mind for me is this walk I had with my friend in Vancouver, Canada, where I'm walking and for the first time I see an elementary school.

They were at recess and this is the first time I've seen one in Canada. Not that I hadn't seen kids and all that stuff, but just this setting, right? And I'm not watching kids like I grew up or like still happen here playing basketball and baseball. I'm watching kids play hockey. I'm just walking by this school and this was like a very foreign experience to me, right?

But anybody seen kids at recess at a school, you can picture this, right? They are so engaged in whatever it is that they're doing, whether these kids over here are playing pretend and make-believe or playing with a dollhouse, or these kids over here are playing hockey or basketball or baseball, whatever it is that they're doing, they are 100% in it, right? Even if that thing is like, hey, who's that person over there walking by the school? Let's go make faces at them. They're all in.

Focus is 100% there, right? I would say the freaks of the world, the ones that you're just like, yeah, to hold that attention and everything like that, you're a freak. Like you think of a circus freak, they're doing something that you very clearly see they have put in insane amount of reps that what they're doing, they actually make it look easy. But I see that it's incredibly hard to do whatever it is that they're doing, but they just make it look easy. Like, how is that?

And that freak is so passionate about whatever it is that they're performing at that time that it's like that child, it's like the kid that's all in right here, right now. So when you have somebody that's playing music, you have Prince and he's shredding on guitar and you're just like, oh my God, he is like, and he's feeling himself, right? One of my best friends, Anthony Francisco, is a musician. He plays guitar, he shreds, he sings, he plays drums. This kid is crazy talented.

I've been to so many of his shows and I have watched him when he's not really feeling it. He's Yeah, I'm just playing the music, whatever, and just getting it done. And I've also watched him where he is lost, where you're like, I think that he might play forever because he's so lost in the music right now. I don't think he's going to stop this solo that he is shredding. I've seen both of these, right?

And that's the same thing. Like, some people call it flow, whatever, but like the same actor that's playing the character, whatever. I think we all genuinely— I believe this. We all have that freak. We all have it.

It's just a matter of how much have you let society shave that down from you to where it subdues you and puts you a little bit more caged, a little bit more caged, a little bit more caged. My example of that experience is when I went into acting classes, I was so scared. I was timid. I was like, oh my God, I don't know what I'm getting into. And they were— we were doing stuff in there that I'd never done in my real life at all.

Like, hey, you're gonna stare at this person's eyes for 5 minutes straight and you're not gonna break eye contact. I'm like, I've never done that in my life. Who has? Yeah. Yeah.

At least like one little glance away. But what ended up happening is I got to be the freak in that class. It was like, oh, I can get lost in this art. This is amazing. I think we all have that freakishness about us.

Dustin Grinnell (01:29:37 --> 01:29:37)
It.

Anthony Thomas (01:29:37 --> 01:30:24)
It's just a matter of how much am I going to let judgment stop me from really getting into that flow state, into that freakishness, into that weirdness? Am I going to go, okay, I can do this a little bit, but I don't want to go over the top because people are going to judge me and they're going to look at me and say I'm weird or I'm too stiff or I'm too animated? How much of that has society shaved away from you and your ability to just lean into it and just be that? Because in acting, at some point the director or yourself or somebody else cut and the scene is over, and then you can come back down and you can be like, ah, okay, let me breathe again and, you know, get back to the real world and everything. The same is true with any sort of performing art or any sort of, you know, you being an author with writing. Like, right now you're probably not in the same mindset that you are when you're really engaged in your writing.

Dustin Grinnell (01:30:24 --> 01:30:51)
Totally different skill sets. Yeah. And that's why I think sometimes being an author is kind of tough because like it's a very solitary activity, it's a very cerebral activity, but then you're asked to like give a talk and hold a room, and then you're asked to like be on radio and TV, and it's like, wow, that's actually— I can see why it's hard to have a very successful career because you really kind of have to be a Swiss Army knife. And, um, that's one of the reasons why I'm talking to you, because it's like, how the fuck do you do this stuff?

Anthony Thomas (01:30:51 --> 01:34:00)
The thing that's like, oh, I pass by this train track every single day, but this is the first time I've ever seen a train wreck. So I'm like locked in cuz it's just different, right? Yeah. So that's how our brain is wired is to, you know, we spot differences and categorize and everything like that. But you're gonna have some levels of this where like the freakish freaks can hold the stage for the longest time.

And the attention for a longer time, that's great. But you don't have to be the freakiest freak to be successful at holding attention. You just could probably develop some level of being able to be yourself, feeling as though it's impossible for me to be punished for being myself. And if I do that and people see that passion, like you were saying, like, ah, try to do anything other than look at the screen for 3 and a half minutes. That's because they are being completely unhindered.

They're not sitting in there in their head like, oh man, my facial expressions look weird as I'm holding this microphone, or as I'm doing this, I look goofy and people are probably thinking I look like this or look like— they're not thinking that. They are just in it. So if you can reach that point for yourself to where you're going to stop judging or accepting the judgments of other people, based on you performing your craft or whatever it is. And, you know, I heard something the other day that was interesting that was like, if you really want to perform— I think this was Rick Rubin, he was talking about the creative process, and he was saying like, get somebody to observe you doing your thing. So like you're saying, you know, writing is a very isolated craft, an isolated skill, isolated activity.

What if you had one person or 10 people that just sat around to watch you work? Would you do things differently? And some people really feed off of that performative energy of like, oh, I have an audience, I better perform. And I'm one of those people. I know, like, it was hard for me early on when it was like, oh, I'm going to act.

And there's all these strangers on set who are working. Like, this is their job. They have the light people and the grip and all these things. But they're all watching me because when they say action, everything on set stops moving. There's no sound and it's all eyes on the performer.

It was weird. Yeah. For me, the first few times I had to do that, and I was like, oh my God. Now I'm like, oh, it's showtime, baby. Let's go.

And I light up when I have to do that. And it's different from when I'm in the studio by myself and I press record on the camera. I'm curious what that would look like for you in that isolated activity of writing if somebody were just observing and somebody were just around observing. You still just stay locked in, but somebody's watching you. In your craft.

Dustin Grinnell (01:34:00 --> 01:35:22)
There's nothing, you know, it's just a guy staring at a screen. There's no animation. There's no lot of physical gestures. It reminds me in the movie Her, one of my favorite movies, One of the characters, Amy Adams, she's making a documentary about sleep. And what she's making a documentary of is just herself sleeping.

And she has this profound thought, which is that we spend 30% of our lives asleep. 30%, right? And Joaquin Phoenix's character, they ended up compatible. I think they end up together at the end after he gives up on an AI system. And he's like, that's true.

That's a really profound thought. But her incompatible boyfriend's like, that's kind of boring. Maybe you should put in voiceover narration. Maybe you should put recorded on on-screen interviews. So it made me think, because if you put a camera on me when I'm writing, that's going to be boring as fuck.

It's just not. And I'm not going to act for the camera on that one. I'll do it. I'll do it for you. I'll make a 5-minute video for you of me working on my book.

And yeah, let's see. I almost feel like I want to rebel against that a little bit. I want to be like, just act like a goof, act like a— be sarcastic, whatever. But it's interesting, it's almost the same as making a movie about someone sleeping because these are deeply cinematic subject matter. But in, in a sense, it's almost like a very heady exercise.

Anthony Thomas (01:35:23 --> 01:39:24)
So I kind of like it. But that's the thing is like, if you do some goofy stuff and everything, is that you being you, or is that you being performative? Is that you being more the freak that's holding attention because you're just so in it, you're so locked in, or is that you performing as trying to be this character? Because the whole idea here, in my opinion, if I can interpret what Rick Rubin is getting at here, is he's like, this is just to add to— he was using this in the context of like breaking free of a creative block. He's like, if you're creative blocked, then bring someone in to observe you and it's gonna change things up a little bit and you'll, you know, find different inspiration, so to speak.

But what I'm getting at here is, are you going to change up who you are if someone's observing you or if somebody's not. And again, there is an element here of how big is the audience size, right? So if you're by yourself, that's a different audience size than the audience of 1 versus an audience of 100 versus an audience of 100,000. So the way we behave, it's not to say that it's a fake you, but it's just more so what do you do to change who you are and how do you get to that level of being a freak to hold attention? And it's not about like Oh, because the camera's on me or because somebody's watching me write or the writing process, now I have to do things differently, per se.

It's just a curiosity of like, if somebody were watching you do your craft of whatever that thing is, is it going to stop you from being the freak that could hold attention if you were just locked into your process and nobody were watching? Or is it going to amplify your ability to hold that attention as the freak and be locked in? I'll give you an example. I just released week 13 of vlogs. I do a vlog a week.

I haven't missed for 13 weeks. When I started that, I didn't know what to expect, but one of the things that I did experience and have experienced is a much higher level of performance almost across the board in my life as a parent. Because it's like, oh, the camera's on me. Like, I better be more present with the kids right now. I better read a book or all this stuff.

And it's stuff that I had already been doing, but maybe not as consistently or as thoughtfully or things like this. So there is this sort of like encouragement for me to be better, right? That's like one of the impacts is, and so that's also one of the things that has driven me to keep doing it because it's the same is true with like, I better go to jiu-jitsu this week because I'm not gonna miss a week. I've 6 months, I haven't missed a week. I better not miss a week, right?

And every area of my life I was like, damn, I'm performing better. But is this fake? Is it not? Is it, Is it just because I'm more encouraged because I'm now being observed more or less by myself? Cause I'm setting the camera up and all that stuff, but I just step up to a higher level of performance when I do have a camera on, I noticed.

And so it's like, what a great hack for my life. Even if I just record and throw all the footage away, this is a great hack for my life. If you are someone who maybe you try this out and there's a physical person watching you and you perform at a worse level, then maybe you know that you need to go into isolation to perform at your highest. But maybe unless you try it, maybe when someone is watching, you go, oh, I have to get into this writing because somebody's watching me and I better, I better write like a madman right now. Otherwise this person might not think I'm actually a writer or, you know, whatever it may be.

So I'm just curious what that looks like for anybody listening, for whatever your craft is. If you added an audience member to watch you do your thing, are you going to be the freak? To where you lean into your game of hockey in that, you know, essence of the elementary school kid at recess? Or are you going to be just kind of like, I'm a little distracted and I want to look cool, you know, I'm not really passionate? Because the freaks on stage that hold attention are the ones that are so locked into their craft that it's as if we're watching them in a museum exhibit.

Dustin Grinnell (01:39:24 --> 01:42:11)
But it was. He had practiced for like— actually, I think it was like 8 months. And that's all he did. And he just practiced this incredibly intricate routine. And he nailed it.

It's funny because what's more interesting there, it was a split screen of him performing on the plastic guitar and on the side it's the performance. It's seeing the buttons being hit and struck, right? They're both pretty interesting to the eye and I found myself going back and forth. But if I had to average it, I would say it's 70% on the guy. I'm interested in the human who seems to be lost in this activity.

And yes, it's totally surreal because I've never seen anything like this before. So there's a lot of admiration, there's a lot of like potentially like a little disgust because you're like, damn, 8 months on like this video game, you know? So it's a very complex thing you're observing, right? It's like, why the fuck? And then there's a— and you know, comments are the best, right?

So we— I go into the comments and a lot of people are saying like, dude, why don't you just 'Like, learn a real guitar.' That's a fair point. That's a fair point. But then another guy would be like, 'Oh, so he could be another, like, guy around the guitar playing, like, you know, whatever.' And it's like, that's a fair point too. He's the only person on this planet who has mastered that routine, and it's seemingly impossible for the way human beings are put together. It's really crazy.

But like, yes, I was watching him more than the activity. And it was engaging because he's like a freak. That's a definition of a freak. So, but I feel like I could talk to you for hours and I really wanted to go— I, man, I'm holding back right now so hard, but I wanted to go into the space of like The Truman Show and what it's like to have people observing you and what it's like to manufacture an artificial world and only the hero doesn't know it. I wanted to go into the space of like reality TV, how quote unquote real is it?

And it's interesting how your vlogging made you better, but in a lot of reality TV, it makes you worse. And so why is that? You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna not do that. Um, if you want to pick up anything I just threw out, I do, please do. I only have one more question before we close off, but yeah, have at what I just said because it pretty much constitutes 10 hours of content.

Anthony Thomas (01:42:11 --> 01:45:14)
Yeah, yeah, no, I hear you. So Truman Show, that's probably the single most impactful movie of— if I were to say like what changed my life in the way that I live, was like Truman Show for sure. It's like that was the first movie for me that it was like, this is mind-blowing, and how could I ever know? You know, like we all have that, like, is this happening? Like, what is going on?

Right, right. So I think in my experience, especially with vlogging and everything like this, this is the first time I've ever done something like this. Like, oh, I'm gonna do a vlog or anything like that. So I've been in the world of being on camera, in front of camera for, hey, you're shooting this global campaign, whether it's still photography or it's video and you're acting or whatever. I've been around this for over a decade, over 10 years of doing this for so many different brands, so many different industries and all this stuff.

So I've been with the top, like, heavy hitters of advertising, commercial making, and all that stuff, yourself included, right? And what's different for me right now, why I don't feel like it takes away from me and it actually adds to my level of life and excitement and the quality of my life overall, is this is the first time that I have taken complete control over media. This is the first time I'm not playing a role that was assigned to me. I mean, obviously, you know, I audition or get selected, whatever, and I accept that. But this is the first time where I have complete total control.

So this is back to my point earlier where I will not accept the biggest ad offers if it's not something I genuinely believe in or like, or, you know, know, like, trust, right? This is why for me it feels totally different because I have, first of all, I have total control. I don't have any bounds on myself, especially now what I'm doing with my podcast and everything. I'm like, I'm not doing any rules of this length or that length or this type or that Everything is free for me to create how I want to create. Nobody's going to tell me how to do something one way or another.

I take advice and criticism and critiques from people, yourself included, which I so deeply value. We've had some wonderful exchanges over the last couple of weeks about things like this, and I love it. But ultimately, it's entirely my decision whether to keep creating. I could stop any moment I want. I'm not under contract to produce this many or that many or anything like that.

I can create it however I want. I can change the editing style. I have complete creative freedom. So for me, everything that I'm doing is fulfilling, it's entertaining, it's, it's exciting. It's something that I want to be doing.

Dustin Grinnell (01:45:15 --> 01:45:23)
Like an endurance event, turning it into like, yes, like just for the purpose of endurance, not correct subject matter.

Anthony Thomas (01:45:23 --> 01:46:11)
That, that's an interesting exercise. Yeah, right. And I love that. Now, if I were bound and it was like, oh, you know, I'm with under this label or something, they're like, we can't do that, then I have to follow their stuff. But I'm completely free.

And I think that this, to me, is that freak on stage holding the audience. And I am the audience. Like, I am making this stuff for me, whether somebody watches it. And I'm putting it out there for other people to enjoy and all these things, sure. But As I create, it's like, what questions do I have?

Dustin Grinnell (01:46:11 --> 01:46:19)
I love it. You know, follow your bliss and the lessons you're learning. You're imparting wisdom to to others.

Anthony Thomas (01:46:19 --> 01:46:19)
Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (01:46:19 --> 01:47:29)
And then he realizes that his wife may be in on it, and she does this thing because this is a national TV show, so there's a lot of like in-product— there's like ads that are in the, in the reality TV show, and his wife is like presenting like this coffee to him, she's like, this is a Colombian dark roast coffee from the jungles or whatever. I love the way he looks. He goes, he looks left and then right, and he's like, what the hell are you talking about? Because it's the— because he knows the tone is off, you know. It's a plug.

Yeah, yeah. It's a— he knows the tone is a plug. He knows it's an ad tone. And we're talking about being on camera and being effective. We're talking about style and format and presentation.

Anthony Thomas (01:47:29 --> 01:47:32)
You're like, who are you talking to?

Dustin Grinnell (01:47:32 --> 01:47:39)
Who are you talking to? Yeah. 'Cause he knows, he's like, you're, you're talking as if there's a bigger audience and there's no bigger audience I can see.

Anthony Thomas (01:47:39 --> 01:48:10)
So I just love that. That's exactly it. Yeah. That's a great example of played to your audience size. That's a great example of it, right? Yes, exactly. If that were a real live audience or something and she did that, you would be like, oh, this kind of checks out. But when you're like, this is my wife in my kitchen and it's just us on the way before going to work, whatever, what in the world? This is not fitting. So that's where sometimes you might actually be genuine in what you're sharing, but if you're playing to the wrong audience size, it doesn't seem authentic. So when you hear the term read the room.

Dustin Grinnell (01:48:10 --> 01:48:19)
Yeah, that's part of reading the room. She misread the room. Yeah, well, actually, she read the room right. She was presenting to the national audience. Yes. Not him. Yes.

Anthony Thomas (01:48:19 --> 01:49:11)
So she read the room, but it was not— but yeah, so the reality TV thing, like, people that have such a hard time when they go on a reality show and all that stuff, you're at the behest of the producers, the writers, everything like this. And I don't feel that one bit with what I create. Everything I create is because I want to create it, or somebody else made a request. Because I'll sometimes— I'll put out like, hey, what is something that you would want me to share or open up about or talk about or anything like that? And people can comment or send a suggestion like, hey, I'm curious about this, or would you talk about that? But everything that I do is my own decision. It's not because, oh, they got cameras on me and I have to perform a certain way, or they're going to cut this in a certain way. Like, I have complete control over my creative outlet with this, so I don't feel any level of like, man, I can't believe I did that, said that, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, this is all stuff that I wanna do and share.

Dustin Grinnell (01:49:11 --> 01:49:56)
Last question, ending on kind of like a positive note. And you know, it gets to a lot of things you've already been talking about. Just show up and, and talk about things you're passionate about that helps you present the most effectively, right? That's no trick. That's just choose what lights you up.

I'm, I'm wondering what you say to someone who may have like a self-worth problem, or it's a self-perception problem. They think that they are not worthy of sharing their ideas on camera. They think their ideas aren't good enough, or they think they're not smart enough. They think they're not attractive enough, they're not cool enough, they don't have the charisma. There's a thousand other people like them saying the stuff that they want to say, so why even try?

Anthony Thomas (01:49:56 --> 01:52:29)
You know, it's like, what do you say to someone who doesn't know if they're worth watching? That's a great question. So my answer to that, it varies person to person. Every person is fighting sort of different battles. So I'll give multiple answers to the same scenario.

So let's say you, you feel that sort of, ah man, there's already so many people doing this thing. I shared with you Vin, who's been doing what I'm doing, what we're talking about here, way longer than I have built a 7, possibly 8-figure business by now doing this stuff. He's way more accredited than I am. And I could look at that and be like, ah, there's already somebody in the space, there's already somebody doing it, and he's doing it way better than I possibly could. And all these things.

Plus he has an Australian accent and he's Vietnamese. So like, how wonderful of a thing to look at and all these, right? Hold the room, the freak on stage, right? There's all these things. So there's some people Myself as a lifetime athlete, I need someone to, to kind of dig in a little bit deeper and, and push me, not coddle me.

So somebody in that sense, like, if you have a kind of thick skin, I would say, why don't you do it better? Why don't you make your goal to get as good or better than they are? And this— that's no short-term goal. Right? It's not like, oh yeah, you could do that in a month.

It's like, hey, we're talking a 10-year game here. Are you up for that challenge? You know, I might push on somebody like that a little bit more, or I might say something like, yes, you suck. You do suck. You are not good at this at all.

In fact, every time I watch you, I cringe watching you. But you know what? I cringed less at this video than yesterday's video. So if you keep on doing this, those cringes go down, you're gonna get better. And even if you're worried about nobody's going to watch, I'll tell you straight up, I don't think you understand.

Like, you have a question, are people going to watch this? Let me clear the air for you. Nobody's going to watch it. Nobody's going to watch the stuff that you create. Literally nobody.

Dustin Grinnell (01:52:29 --> 01:54:12)
It's like, Learneth by— learn by doeth, or learneth by doeth, some sort of way he says it. But it's like, yeah, repeatedly in this conversation you talk about practice and doing the reps and getting the reps and being on a 10-year time scale, right? That's just really realistic and feasible and a good way to approach this. You're also— and what you just said too is like the power of critique, you know, finding someone who has some expertise in this critique you from a craft level. That's the whole point of MFA programs, right?

It's like to get a bunch of people in there reading your work or watching your work and critiquing it not from like a, "Oh, do I feel bad or feel good?" from a craft perspective. Like looking at a piece of work, 5 pages of writing, and being like, "Where's our protagonist here?" And so on and so forth. Thinking about plot and character and dialogue and all that. So finding someone who can critique you. And there's a great TED Talk by Atul Gawande.

He's a Brigham and Women's Hospital surgeon, a gastrointestinal surgeon. He talks about It's just 5 minutes long. He's talking about the power of having a mentor and what the mentor's role is. And the mentor's role is to point out all the little ways that you suck so that you can snip it up, you can wrap it up, you can know that incision is too long there. You need to tighten it up by 3mm.

You took too long removing the gallbladder or whatever. It should take 90 seconds or less because of whatever. Okay, I was 110 seconds there. It's these incremental critiques and just slowly getting better. And that seems to be your school of thought.

Anthony Thomas (01:54:12 --> 01:56:02)
It's really just, uh, for sure, if you can find somebody that you trust, you know, I shared with you the other day that I— you shared some critiques with me, and I was like, I want to be clear, I'm about to open up to you and say this feels— my visceral reaction to the critiques that you share, it makes me feel insecure, it makes me feel like, oh, like I cringe at myself because what you shared I know to be true. I know it to be accurate for myself. You share this thing, I read it, and I can either go, yes, it's true, no, it's not true, or I could go, yes, I'm going to give it attention, or no, I'm not going to give it any attention. And the growth comes when you look at something and you say, ah, yes, it is true, and I'm going to give it attention and try to correct it and do better after that. But if you have somebody that you trust has your best interest at heart and they're giving you critiques, that's one of the most valuable tools you can have to growth.

And what I would say to this point is I've never met somebody in business or in the arts or anything that I do professionally. I've never met somebody who is more successful than I am in that particular area ever just trash talk me. Yeah. The people that trash talk are usually at roughly the same level or at a lower level. Yeah, the ones that are way ahead of you and all that stuff, first of all, you're a non-threat, and so there's no real like ego driving this there.

Dustin Grinnell (01:56:02 --> 01:58:43)
It's another thing to be open and to accept the feedback for the total beginner, you know, in whether it's entertainment business or advertising The word for feedback is notes. You write a script and you get notes from someone, whether it's another writer or an actor or director. They give you notes and the note is, can we say it this way, not that way? Can we open with this and not that? And, you know, for the very beginner, if you're beginning with this type of work, the best advice I would give is your whole life is notes.

Your whole entire creative life is revision. Okay? And you need to learn the art of absorbing them, accepting them, working with most of them, rejecting some of them. The ones that you want to reject but you have to actually accept for different reasons, figuring out how to transform those into something that works for your story or your performance. The whole ball game is notes.

Like, you're just gonna have a whole universe of people around you who are just as creative or not as creative, and they will have constraints to put on you and your work will get better. That's why we have drafts. We do iterations. Creative work is iteration and it's driven by notes. And if you're just starting out and you're feeling a little squeamish about people giving you feedback or you just wanna like instinctively reject it, You really want to resist that because the truth of it is, is that it's all about iteration and the notes will help.

And we're giving each other notes. Like if you were to write some fiction and send me some pages, I would give you notes. You know, I sent you a 3-minute video of me talking about a movie I like. You gave me notes, you know? And I think when I was in an MFA program studying creative writing, the director always used to say, If you're giving feedback and you have a highly critical thing to say versus a compassionate thing to say, always say the compassionate thing.

It's like, you don't have to be an asshole. You don't have to be a jerk. You don't have to be superior. You don't have to be pedantic. Just say, from a craft-based perspective, here's how I'm reacting to your work.

Anthony Thomas (01:58:43 --> 02:00:54)
Yeah, right. And the big thing that I would say, and it took me a long time to get to this point, the big thing is like when you get a critique from somebody, or even if you critique yourself, right, one of the things we talked about is like watch your video back and watch it with no audio to just see how your mannerisms and expressions are. And then do the inverse of that. Listen to your video with no visual. Yeah.

And see what you sound like and everything, right? Big thing with the critiques, and it took a long time for me, is to realize when you get a critique or if you give a critique to yourself, don't stick with the general critique of like, here's the critique and go, oh man, I'm crushed. Again, specificity kills the pain. So when you go, oh man, I did I was too stiff in this video. That might feel bad to hear, but then if you get specific with it, like, what was it that made me feel or come off stiff in that video?

You go, oh, I wasn't really emoting with my face, or I didn't really speak with hand gestures, or my tonality didn't fluctuate enough as I was describing this. Whatever it is, when you get specific, then it's just a task. It's no longer a character trait. It's just like, oh, this is just the thing I need to do. Just check this box.

Just do this next time I record, and then we're golden, right? So ultimately, so what if it's true? Conan O'Brien told many times, you're too goofy, tone it down with the goofy. So what? Am I too good?

Am I too goofy? I am really goofy. But am I too goofy? Those are different things. I'm really goofy.

And you know what? That's okay. I am really goofy. You know what? They're right.

That might not have felt good at first to be called goofy in showbiz, but he's like, yeah, you know what? I am pretty goofy if you realize it. And then He just owned that. That's just who he is. So why should you try to correct who you are?

Dustin Grinnell (02:00:54 --> 02:02:32)
You have to take risks, right? I think I found my voice on the page, but I have not found my voice in front of camera. So I'm trying different things out, right? And a good example is like, always read biographies because biographies are the pathway to how they got to where they are, right? This is their lived experience.

So, you know, I think about Anthony Bourdain and we think of him as just like, oh my God, just this beautiful like memoirist and like, you know, he brings these travel experiences to life and stuff. But he did not start out like that. I mean, obviously he started out as a cook, But like, he just wrote this. Let's just skip to the part. If you watch the documentary that's out about him, there was several months of him being in travel experiences with the producers where they were like, this sucks, man.

And he knew it sucked too. And they actually thought about pulling the plug. Imagine that, pulling the plug on Anthony Bourdain before he's Anthony Bourdain. So, but he started out really mechanically, really like hockey, really fake, kind of manufacturing these scenes and stuff like that. And then I gotta go back and see what he did in detail, but he just let that shit slide and he just became himself and he just started having conversations with people and like really getting into life.

And then he's a writer, he's a beautiful writer. And so they're like, yeah, you want to write the voiceover? Sure. And it's like, yeah, we've got something real right now with. It's not made in a lab.

Anthony Thomas (02:02:32 --> 02:03:07)
So he did not start off with any Bourdain. In a world that's very clearly going toward AI and all these things that are machine fabricated, the thing that's gonna stand out is a real person, an authentic person. It's like, who is this individual that's like, this isn't just some machine thought of things, right? So authenticity is king in my opinion. If you, are authentic and you feel still or stale or stiff, great. You're gonna suck your first 100 stuff, whatever you're creating, they're gonna suck. Just keep sucking a little bit less each time you do it and just keep showing up.

Dustin Grinnell (02:03:07 --> 02:03:16)
Your one job is to just keep showing up. That's it. Love it. So thanks for coming and best of luck with everything. Can't wait till our next conversation.

Anthony Thomas (02:03:16 --> 02:03:22)
It's gonna be an endurance event. We're going 5+ hours. Yeah, buddy. I'm so I was so up for it, dude. I was so up. Thank you, dude.

Dustin Grinnell (02:03:22 --> 02:03:25)
Thank you. This was awesome. I had a blast. Me too. I'm glad you did.

Anthony Thomas (02:03:25 --> 02:03:28)
And I'll catch up with you next time.

Dustin Grinnell (02:03:28 --> 02:03:56)
All right. See you, Dustin. Thanks for listening to this episode of Curiously. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Anthony Thomas. If this episode challenged you or helped expand your perspective or satisfy your curiosity about the world, please consider sharing it with your friends and family and use it to have a conversation of your own. If you want to support Curiously, please consider leaving a review. They encourage people to listen and help attract great guests. Thanks again for listening and stay tuned for more conversations with people I meet along the way.