MFA Writing Programs: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly

Dustin (00:00:00 --> 00:00:00)
Dustin.

Sam (00:00:00 --> 00:02:47)
How long does it take to write a book? How much money do you actually make? But there's one question that hits different, especially when it comes from other writers. Can writing really be taught? As if talent were a, uh, fixed trai?

Either have it or you don't. And yet, every year, thousands of writers pack up their manuscripts, their half finished novels, their dog eared notebooks, and enroll in MFA programs and creative writing to find out. Inside those programs, something strange and specific happens. You sit in a room, you put your work on the table, and then the people around that table, your professors, your peers, take it apart sentence by sentence, scene by scene. They question your choices, challenge your instincts, and hand it back to you with the expectation that you'll make it better.

I know this rhythm because I lived it. I did my MFA in fiction writing and two writers I met there were Sam Cooke and Martin Smith. We were in the trenches together. The workshops, the readings, the late night arguments about whether a story's premise actually works. We also saw the rest of it.

The posturing, the virtue signaling, the bureaucratic absurdities, the moments when the whole enterprise felt less like artistic training and more like an elaborate social experiment. In this episode, Sam, Martin and I pull back the curtain on all of it, whether you're considering an MFA already in one, or simply curious about what happens when a room full of writers tries to teach and sometimes outdo each other. This one's for you.

So I'm here with Sam Cook and Martin Smith. We are gathered here today because we each have a Master's in Fine Arts and Creative writing and we all went to the same program. Today we're going to talk about the pros and cons. We're going to share some stories, uh, give you a real sense of what the experience is actually like. So we all met in the same small Boston based, low residency MFA program.

Uh, so it's kind of a reunion. We're getting the band back together. Martin is in Pennsylvania. He's calling in from the phone. He's in the cloud right now.

Martin (00:02:47 --> 00:03:08)
Yeah, my name is Sam Cooke, born and raised in Florida, been up here ever since. Um, I write Primarily fiction for young adults and children. The thing I'm working on right now, though, is actually adult fiction. So that is something new to get my feet wet. Also have some plays, musicals in my back pocket as well.

Dustin (00:03:09 --> 00:03:38)
So, um, I am here in Chester, Pennsylvania, by way of Tennessee, where I grew up. Um, I was also in this. I was in the same program as Sam at our, uh, low residency mfa. We both did writing for children and adults and young adults. Um, I did picture books mostly, but most of my work right now is in nonfiction. I'm working on a book right now about the band Metallica, which has been a lot of fun. You know, I also teach writing, uh, here at a couple universities in New Jersey, and that's that.

Sam (00:03:38 --> 00:03:56)
All right. Uh, the perfect group to talk, uh, about an MFA program. So, you know, basic terms. Sam, uh, or Martin, either of you can take this one. You know, for the lay listener, what is an MFA in writing? And why would somebody get one of those?

Dustin (00:03:56 --> 00:04:55)
Now, you know, an mfa, you know, in writing was basically just focused on craft. Uh, that's the main intention of an mfa. You're supposed to focus on craft, focus on, you know, how you're going to come up with words. Because if you've made it to that point, it's pretty well determined. You have a pretty creative mind and you know how to write.

It's about fine tuning everything. At least that's what the experience is supposed to be. Now, what it ends up being, I think for a lot of people, is a networking opportunity. They say, you know, in college and grad school, a lot of what it is, is who you meet. And to a point, that's true as well.

Sam (00:04:56 --> 00:05:09)
The three of us went to what's called a low residency program. Sam, why don't you lay out what's the difference between a low residency program and, you know, not a full time, uh, program in writing.

Martin (00:05:10 --> 00:06:20)
Yeah. So a low residency program, you're gonna have the flexibility to do the majority of your work, and at home you attend like twice a year, like a 10 day in person residency and workshop with your classmates. And then the rest of the semester you're working one on one with a mentor through like packet exchanges and assignments. Most of it is like creative writing back and forth with your mentor. It's a, uh, really good opportunity and it's why I did it. If you are working full time or even if you're working part time, because you, you know that you have just those two 10 day periods where you need to be in person and you can do the rest of the work from anywhere. Like I lived in New York City at the time and would travel down to up, travel up to Boston for those two residencies, and then the rest of the time I was working in New York City. So yeah, I think for someone who is working full time or just has other things going on, the low residency is. It was a really great option and it really fit into my life at the time.

Sam (00:06:21 --> 00:07:30)
You can also get a, uh, MFA in poetry, uh, graphic novels. And our program, like many MFA programs, is kind of a mixture of all of them. Uh, and even in fiction, I was in the adult fiction writing program in Salman Martin. Martin. We're in the young adult fishing program.

So we all mix together for those ten day residencies, one in the winter, one in the summer. And it's kind of a hoot, you know, you're spending time with everybody who loves the thing that you love to do, and you get together for class classes on craft, for workshop to study pages and for readings. And the last thing I would say in response to Sam's comment is that those packet exchanges that happen when you're not at school are usually 20, 20 pages of work for fiction writers. So basically you need to come up with 5 times 20. You need to come up with that amount of material to send to your teacher while you're away.

Martin (00:07:31 --> 00:08:21)
Yeah, I remember my, uh, first residency. I remember someone saying like, don't be fooled. Just because it's low residency doesn't mean it's not a lot of work. And I started the program with several other people and by the time we actually graduated, there were only four of us because other people had been like, it's too much work. I can't balance it with my everyday life responsibilities. So the other thing is like, you really have to carve out the time in your life to do the work because like, I guess the benefit of a full in person MFA program would be like, that's all you have to focus on. Whereas, like the low residency, like, that's all you have to focus on for those 10 days at a time. And then good luck, you have to make it work for the rest of the year while you're away.

Sam (00:08:22 --> 00:08:45)
Now, Martin, what about you? Because you're a prolific writer with books under your belt before you even started this program. So I imagine, uh, the pages wasn't hard for you to produce. So what were you kind of hoping you didn't have to teach yourself how to write and produce? So why for you go into this program having already, you know, you know, you've achieved a certain level of mastery over the craft?

Dustin (00:08:45 --> 00:10:13)
I mean, that's high praise and I'm grateful for it. But again, for me, the biggest aspect of it was is that I wanted to teach other people to write. And I was already an adjunct by the time I enrolled in the program. I, um, was teaching at a couple of institutions in and around Pennsylvania, uh, in the Philadelphia area. But I could never go past that level of adjunct without a terminal degree and being low residency and me being a parent and me teaching part time and writing everything that I wrote and everything else.

The low residency aspect gave me the ability to still be prolific in my writing, but to have a sub editorial eyes on it. I was going to say for free, but as we all know, that program was not free, um, but to give me a chance to have eyes of people that understood craft and learning how to better craft, if that makes sense. So that was kind of the focus for me was first off, obviously, the credentials so that I could teach. But I was in an area with other writers where I was going to get feedback and it was going to be real feedback too. As we talked about before, Sam and I were in the same, you know, uh, writing for young, uh, children and young Adults program.

Sam (00:10:14 --> 00:10:45)
Let's, uh, talk about feedback. So feedback, what you were saying was someone reading your work and giving, you know, notes feedback on your work through what's called workshop. So, um, I think this is probably a good time to talk about workshop, uh, because that's where that's kind of like the beating heart of an MFA M program. That's what you're doing for those, like, what, three hours each, uh, of the ten days. Um, and that's what really is tiring. It's demanding.

Dustin (00:10:45 --> 00:10:45)
Uh,

Sam (00:10:47 --> 00:10:49)
what are we doing there? For someone who doesn't know anything about it?

Martin (00:10:49 --> 00:12:23)
You submit that, it gets emailed to everybody in your cohort. So, like, Martin said, like, he and I were in the same genre study. So we were receiving, I think at, uh, the peak of our program, we were receiving, like, seven packets of 20 to 30 pages each. So you go into workshop with the expectation that you've read of your classmates, submissions, you've made thoughtful comments, notes, questions, feedback. And then how our group did it was there were, like, two people that would go a day, and you would just sit there and let's say that, like, they're workshopping my piece.

I just sit there in silence while everyone is like, oh, I really liked this. Or, like, oh, this didn't make sense at all. And so, like, I have a background in professional theater. So, like, receiving and giving feedback is part of who I am. It's, like, how I grew up.

Dustin (00:12:23 --> 00:13:21)
And I think that's rough because it's just like you're standing there in front of the firing squad, waiting to see which gun has the bullet. And sometimes there's, you know, as dark as it sounds, there's a bullet that you need. And then Sam's point. There's some people where it's just like, why are you in this program? Not to be negative, but, I mean, there were people that.

In our program that I'm just surprised even survived the first semester. Workshop's tough. It's intense. It's designed to be that because you're getting feedback from people that can't. That can't bullshit you when it comes to what you're learning and what you're you're getting across.

These are people that know the craft. These are people that are learning the exact same things that you were learning and they're your peers. So it's a great environment if it's led properly. And I think, uh, Sam and I were fortunate enough to have several workshop leaders in our program that were really good at leading workshop. But it's an entirely different experience than anything else in academia.

Sam (00:13:22 --> 00:14:34)
Yeah, yeah. Um, it's where the rubber meets the road. You put something down on paper and, uh, you really find out, is it clear, is it engaging? And what you get is, like you said, craft level feedback. You know, when you send work to your mom or dad or friends, they say, oh, I like the ending, or I really like this character.

It's not craft feedback. Let's just give some examples of, like, what people say in workshop that actually makes your work better. I said once, Martin, you and I are in workshop. And I said, you know, when workshop's really working for me, it's when I say to myself, oh, I didn't think of that. Because so much of creative writing is like, you have to be neurotic with your work.

Like, oh, is that sentence clear? Oh, is that dialogue ringing? Uh, true. Did I open in an engaging way? Is that character multi dimensional?

Whatever. And like, you just can't think of everything. So you get a bunch of people to kind of like weigh in and say, m. That doesn't sound right. Or I'm not sure what you meant there. I'm confused and, and stuff like that.

Martin (00:14:34 --> 00:15:52)
And then one of us like, oh, you know what? I just solved the problem for you. And those are the moments. I, um, think for me, one of the, like, one of my best memories was my first semester. The piece that.

The manuscript that I was working on had this huge plot twist at the end. And when I shared it, everybody in the group was like, there's no way that's gonna work. And I was like, no, it will. And for the rest of my time in that program, two year program, as I was like, working on this manuscript, you know, I was writing other stuff on the side too. I remember my graduation residency, one of our mentors, one that all Three of us shared David Yu.

Shout out David Yu. He's the best. He was like, you know what, it did work. You were right. And um, so I think it's just like, that's like a good example of like, you're gonna get feedback that like you said, some of it you might be like, oh shit, yeah, you are right.

Dustin (00:15:53 --> 00:17:07)
There's an old saying in the south that there are certain types of people that can tell you to go to hell in a way to make you enjoy, look forward to the trip, so to speak, and to heap more praise on David. You, David wasn't that. David was the kind of person that could tell you how to get to hell and you wouldn't even me realizing that you're getting directions to hell. David, you know, is a very blunt person, but he does not withhold his praise when something's right. I remember the greatest compliment the man ever gave me was that he looked at me, he said, you know, I was able to suspend my disbelief for about five minutes reading this. Um, and as you guys know, as people that are in this kind of crap, that's the hardest thing to do. We are taught to critically analyze every word that we read. And for a lot of times it takes a lot of fun out of a lot of media. But when you can get into something that takes that suspension of distillation and gives it back to you, that's the kind of feedback that really is what guides you along the way. And David was great at it. So were a lot of our other mentors and a lot of the other students too. But it takes a certain hand to lead a workshop and it takes a certain way to work to be an active participant in a workshop. So it's a skill in and of its own.

Sam (00:17:08 --> 00:18:14)
And uh, yeah, it does take a light touch. One thing that I remember the director of our program saying once is she said sometimes you learn more from hearing other people's work being workshop than your own. And I remember that happened to me a few times. Like I would. Someone made a comment about someone's sci fi story and they say the setting could have been better.

There could have been like more world building. And I thought to myself, oh, my story could use a little bit more of that too. So that's an interesting thing that happens in workshop. It's like you're always listening. You're always learning.

Martin, you said, you know, let's not hold back here. You know, you said that sometimes you're sitting across from someone's work, you've read their work, and you're kind of like, you know, it's not really that good. That's okay. In some cases, that's how. It's just how we learn.

Um, or maybe they didn't really put in enough effort or whatever. So what. What happens in the workshop when you're reading something that's. That's just not good? And how do you constructively talk about it?

Dustin (00:18:14 --> 00:18:30)
Honestly, I don't. Uh, and Sam can attest to this. When we were in the workshop, we were in the workshop, and Sam knows exactly who I'm talking about. But there would be times when we're reading this person's work, uh, you can't follow it. The plot doesn't make sense.

Martin (00:18:30 --> 00:18:31)
Sure do.

Dustin (00:18:31 --> 00:19:19)
It's somebody trying to make them theirselves into a character and a story, which can work if you're, uh, the guy that wrote Gatsby Fitzgerald. But when you have adult, boring life and you write an adult, dull, boring style, there's no fixing that. So I tend to disengage with those words. It didn't happen often, I'll be honest. I mean, it goes both directions too. You often tend to disengage from bad feedback. And, boy, I could tell you some stories there, but it's a slog. You find a way to say one or two nice things about it, and, uh, you get ready to focus on the works that people wrote that you're truly passionate about. I mean, that's just as blunt as I can be about it. I'm not going to waste time on something that did not put forth the time and effort to deserve my attention. My time is valuable. Even though I'm paid for this program, just like you, I have something of value to offer you. If you don't have anything to offer me, I'm not going to engage.

Martin (00:19:20 --> 00:20:05)
I think also in workshop, like, there can be a common misconception where you feel like you have to say something just to say something, and you just don't. Like, I'm not saying, like, if someone's work is, you know, it could be on the opposite end where it's, like, so good that all you want to do is talk about it. But, like, I find that in workshop, my approach to it was number one. Is this feedback gonna be something that, like, not only benefits this person's story, but other people could take from. I remember I got a piece of feedback once in workshop, and it was like, I just can't understand why the author is writing about Florida and they talk about a plastic bag.

Sam (00:20:06 --> 00:20:11)
Because there's what less plastic bag, like, if it. Well, what. What was that comment grounded in?

Martin (00:20:11 --> 00:20:49)
Don't know. That was an example of, like, okay, are you just talking to hear yourself talk? Or, like, you know. And with workshop, too, like, I should have mentioned, you have the opportunity to, like, give the other person your written or typed out notes. So, like, you can go through bullet by bullet and tell, uh, share with everybody, like, everything you thought about it. Or you could pick those pieces of feedback that are either starting a conversation or something that is a bigger topic that other writers in the room can benefit from.

Sam (00:20:50 --> 00:21:14)
Sam, um, you said once you were in workshop and there was a someone sharing. You were reading someone's work, and somewhere in the prose it said, like, uh, develop this further or something. Or like, it was like an outline. Like, they essentially hadn't written that section, but which is like, I can't imagine anything more like, insulting to faculty members and students. You gotta write it.

Martin (00:21:14 --> 00:22:12)
Well, yeah. And I think also, like, I approached it as, like, okay, I know these pages are. They do need some work, because this isn't a final draft. I want to put forward, like, my most final draft possible to people before they're giving me feedback. Because if someone has all these holes and they're like, I don't know, I think I need to go back to that later. How are we supposed to help you also, like, from a, uh, teacher or developer point of view? So I don't know. I think, like Martin said, you can really tell who really locked in and was like, I want to put my best foot forward. I want to take this feedback. I value the time, the opinions of the people that are in the room with me. And then you could also always get the hint of like, oh, you remembered Wednesday night that our packets were due Thursday by noon, and you maybe just threw things together.

Sam (00:22:13 --> 00:22:50)
There are other really fantastic teachers from our program. Someone who had a big impact on me was Sandra Schofield. And she actually just retired. You know, they should hang her jersey up in the rafters. You know, just an awesome literary writer and writer of some nonfiction craft books as well.

What were they? What are they? But she was hardcore. She was hardcore, though. She would never hold back.

Martin (00:22:50 --> 00:23:06)
Yeah, I think so. I actually chose our program because of one of the mentors that was in mine and Martin's, and that was Brendan Kiley, who is, if you're a YA reader, he's very well respected in the YA genre. And so that's why I chose the program.

Sam (00:23:06 --> 00:23:07)
You were like, fangirl.

Martin (00:23:07 --> 00:23:55)
Like our workshops. I never felt. Martin, I hope you can agree, I never felt that I was like, oh, this is a waste of a bus ticket to Boston. Or like, this was a waste of my morning. Like, I could have.

I could have been in that dining hall eating some scrambled eggs. But I felt like we had, like, very attentive workshop leaders. It did get to a point in our genre, specifically where I was the only person left. Cause everyone else had graduated. And so then I just got, like, punted to back and forth between groups.

Dustin (00:23:55 --> 00:24:45)
So congratulations to Renee. Absolutely, uh, fantastic mentor, brilliant, um, literary mind. Uh, Laura Williams McCaffrey was also fantastic. I worked with Laura three times between my MFA and my postgraduate certificate. And when you have people that are leading workshop, that know how to workshop and are.

They put the same amount of passion into the work that's given to them, if that makes sense. It's just. It's an incredible experience. And then, you know, there's, uh, you know, I'm not going to mention names, but there's other ones, you know, that you don't work so well with. And that's fine, too.

Martin (00:24:46 --> 00:25:34)
Yeah. And you also hear, like, I remember before my first workshop, I was like, you mean I'm gonna do this every day for three hours a day? And then I remember after the first one, like, it feels like you blink and it's over. And if you get into, like, the groove with your, like, cohort, I guess it's almost like you're like, no, no, no. Like, let's just keep talking. Let's go eat lunch together and keep the conversations going. I found, like, Martin, I think that's how you And I became so close that we just. We were on the same wavelength of, like, how we wanted to work, what we wanted out of the program. Like, we have the same sort of, like, work ethic, if you will. So when you meet those people, too, that I think makes as big of an impact as, like, having a successful workshop leader.

Sam (00:25:35 --> 00:26:13)
Yeah, I remember, um, Sterling Watson was another writer and faculty member who I really loved working with. In fact, I asked him to look at work after the program. I still work with him. And it's great because he would keep the dream alive. You know, he gives me several pages of feedback, and it's all very specific. It's all very, you know, might want to think about this, might want to think about that, Might want to pair this, you know, and so on and so forth. Uh, it's really good to develop those relationships with faculty members and keep it going. I've emailed David Yu. To this day, I don't want to. I don't bother him. It's twice a year, you know.

Martin (00:26:13 --> 00:26:16)
Yeah, he probably sees your name come up and he's like, God damn it.

Sam (00:26:16 --> 00:26:41)
Because he probably. There's probably a million Dustins out there. You know, how many students has he had? He's not trying to, like, answer craft questions, like, all day. Right.

So you don't want to bother them. You don't want to be annoying. And that's a good thing to know too, because, you know, these are people, you know, they have time, and you don't want to, you know, mess with their time, but you also want to, you know, check in with them. This is my career. This is what I'm working on.

Martin (00:26:41 --> 00:27:34)
Yeah, I think, too, it gets to a point where, like, you're no longer, like, mentor, mentee, and you, if you're lucky, you get to, like, look at each other as, like, not co workers, but, like, in it together. I feel like when I got my first agent, I was like, gotta email Bemi. Gotta tell my people the good news. Cause I feel like also we encountered so many people there that, like, they wanted you to succeed if you wanted it. Like, they could tell. Like, for me, I think why my experience was so positive is that everybody, uh, everybody I encountered was like, oh, this chick wants this. Like, this is her life. And so I think people pick up on that. And so when you succeed, it's like, it feels good for everybody.

Sam (00:27:35 --> 00:27:39)
Yeah, teachers know. They know when you're serious.

Martin (00:27:39 --> 00:27:40)
Yeah.

Sam (00:27:40 --> 00:28:01)
You know, they say, okay, there's a serious person. Or at least they're taking it seriously. And the three of us are lifers, you know, we're just. We got there and we were like in our element, you know? And I hadn't felt an energy like that in a long time. Like, really, you know? Cause we're adults and we go to school again. But it was awesome. It was like a buzz.

Martin (00:28:01 --> 00:28:03)
It was like summer camp.

Sam (00:28:03 --> 00:28:05)
Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh, man, we're all. You guys love this shit too.

Martin (00:28:05 --> 00:28:11)
And like, I. Summer camp too. Like the. I shared a dorm room with someone my first residency.

Dustin (00:28:11 --> 00:28:11)
Right.

Sam (00:28:11 --> 00:28:12)
You stayed on campus?

Martin (00:28:12 --> 00:28:31)
Stayed on campus. My bed was 10ft away from a classmate's bed. For better or for worse. We had a great time and it was just like. And then I remember someone being like, you know, you can request a solo room, right? And I was like, yeah, this is the face of someone who knew that

Dustin (00:28:33 --> 00:28:40)
I tried to stay off campus one semester and the commute was just too much, so. But yeah, a solo room is an absolute necessity. It really is.

Sam (00:28:41 --> 00:29:11)
There was a bit of a dynamic that got set up though, because I was always a commuter. I lived ten minutes away, right. So I just commuted in when everyone else stayed, you know, in the dorms. Means they ate three meals together, essentially. And I didn't always do that. So I always felt a little bit like an outsider. I would just kind of drop in and come in for the workshops and eat lunch with everybody and then like, leave after the readings. So there's kind of like a. I was a little bit more of a ghost than everybody else and I. And there was a real thing going on there.

Martin (00:29:11 --> 00:29:47)
Yeah. I don't know though. Cause pretty much I felt like after the readings, most of the time everyone was. You're just wiped. Like you've been working all day. Because what we haven't said is that, like, you have workshop in the morning and then you have like an hour to eat lunch and then you have craft classes in the afternoon. So, like, you're potentially like working from 9am to 5pm just on, on, on. And if, like, your social battery is like, dead by the end of the day too. So it's also like. We did talk about you a lot though.

Sam (00:29:47 --> 00:29:51)
Oh, yeah. You're like, so glad, uh, this guy's not in the room. Like, yeah.

Dustin (00:29:51 --> 00:30:37)
Oh, yeah, we sure did. And the thing is too, to go back to the readings, I mean, you would be done at 5 o' clock with workshops, but then you would step into those readings and every time somebody was doing a reading, and these are some of the preeminent literary minds on the East Coast. I mean, there's some wonderful, you know, faculty and staff that was in our program. They're bringing their A game to these readings. And a lot of this stuff is emotionally draining just to listen to. It's. You're either belly laughing or, ah, you're sitting there in tears because of, uh, the value of work that they're bringing to the table. This experience, in a lot of ways, is physically and emotionally draining over 10 days. But it's one of those things where when you come out on the other end, you've gained a lot from it. You really have.

Martin (00:30:38 --> 00:31:40)
First of all, the room was always 100 degrees. I don't know if anyone else felt that way, but I'm, uh, like, dripping in sweat while also listening to these readings. But, uh, yeah, I think you have a great point that it was, like, physically exhausting because you're go, go, go. But it's also, like, emotionally and mentally draining because you're, like, giving all you can to your classmates with the acknowledgement and hope that they're also giving you all that they can. And then it's also, like, I don't know, not that you want to, like, show off or, like, look good, but, like, you want to use those 10 days, like, to your advantage.

Like, you want to soak up everything possible. Like, if someone's like, hey, do you want to go to this reading? Or, like, do you want to go to the library? Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'll have lunch with you.

Sam (00:31:40 --> 00:31:44)
A part of you wants to go home and just start revising. But, Martin, do you have something to say?

Dustin (00:31:45 --> 00:32:24)
Well, uh. And to that point, you're surrounded by so much good literature. And, you know, that's a pretty basic way to put it, but it is what it is. It's good literature. You're surrounded by that much good writing.

You can't help but start to turn out new ideas. And you're sitting there and you're like, I'm already exhausted, and I've had to process all of this stuff and be emotionally invested in it. And then you'll be sitting there, you know, oh, God, I've got this idea. I've got to put some of this down somewhere. I've got to write it down and put it in the notes on my phone or something like that.

Sam (00:32:24 --> 00:32:39)
100%. Yep. I felt totally brimming with new ideas, and I captured them all. And then some of them I'm working on to this day. Like five years from now, I still have a folder like that short story idea came from my program.

Martin (00:32:39 --> 00:32:52)
My second manuscript. I remember I, like, thought of the idea during one of the residencies. And I wrote the first chapter. And then I was like, okay, I'm gonna close that. And I will talk to that Word document in six months.

Sam (00:32:52 --> 00:33:01)
We gotta get this on the record, Sam. At readings, okay? Readings are what? They happen at like 5:30pm or 6 even.

Martin (00:33:01 --> 00:33:03)
It was like post dinner, they go,

Sam (00:33:03 --> 00:33:14)
yeah, they're after dinner, three hours of workshop, two or three hours of craft classes. So you're pretty tired. But then what? They're like four readings. And they're each like, what, five minutes to ten minutes long.

Martin (00:33:14 --> 00:33:18)
Faculty. I felt like they were each like 20 minutes long, right?

Sam (00:33:18 --> 00:34:16)
Your mind's going in and out. Like sometimes, uh. I didn't even hear it. Cause I'm just. I'm tired maybe.

I mean, I'm not a big. I'm not big into poetry, so the poems were, like, tough for me. You know, it's obviously like sparkling, brilliant stuff, but it's in some cases, was just like my mind. I don't know what it is about my mind, but it's maybe too abstract or symbolic for me. I kind of want a story, you know?

Um, so the, like, adult fiction. I really liked personal essays. I remember Vinnie Sperry wrote an awesome. She read an awesome essay about her bed, her mattress, and we were all just laughing. We need to get this on record, Sam.

We coined a term called a literary orgasm. And they happen in readings. And there's no. FCC is not listening to this podcast episode, so we're fine. Sam, what is a literary orgasm?

Martin (00:34:17 --> 00:34:17)
Mmm.

Sam (00:34:18 --> 00:34:21)
Right? So someone says something real profound.

Martin (00:34:22 --> 00:34:32)
That's it. Yeah. So someone says. And then she shut the door. And it wasn't just the house. She was shutting the door on her life. And someone's like, mmm, right?

Sam (00:34:33 --> 00:34:37)
Like audibly, like, you know, not to themself. This is a public.

Martin (00:34:37 --> 00:35:08)
You Know, I think if it happened to me, I would maybe view it as a compliment, but as an audience member, it really takes you out of the moment. So, like. And, like, my graduation was on Zoom because I was the class of COVID So, like, your graduating semester, you get to do, like a 20 minute reading of your work. So I don't even know if anyone literally orgasmed for my work. And that haunts me to this day because everyone was on m. Mute on Zoom.

Dustin (00:35:08 --> 00:35:09)
Oh, I did.

Martin (00:35:09 --> 00:35:11)
Thank you. Oh, yeah.

Dustin (00:35:13 --> 00:35:15)
What do you think? I enjoyed Workshop so much.

Sam (00:35:17 --> 00:35:39)
Um, and then, uh, of course, there's. There's snapping, too. Okay. So someone says something that's really, you know, they say something where the wind's blowing the right way. It's conventional wisdom. It's something like, considered. I don't know, uh, you know, admirable or whatever. And the snaps would come and. Yikes. Um, didn't work.

Dustin (00:35:39 --> 00:35:40)
That.

Sam (00:35:40 --> 00:35:44)
That was kind of embarrassing. But people love it, I guess.

Dustin (00:35:44 --> 00:36:11)
You know what it reminded me of? Remind me of the preachers at the altar, and he's going all hell fire and brimstone. Preach about everything. And, uh, he would say, but the Lord Jesus loves you. And people are kind of going, oh, amen. And all that stuff. I mean, you know, you're agreeing with the most obvious that's out there. And it's just like, you want to get your name up there first as being on record and saying, oh, I believe that, or I think that's good, or, oh, I recognize the brilliance in that before anybody else did.

Sam (00:36:11 --> 00:36:36)
Yeah, there's just. There was something that. It was so effusive at times. People just like, being like, oh, my God, I was so moved by that. You could get up there and read the Great Gatsby, and I'll be like, yeah, that was awesome. I'm not gonna snap. I'm not gonna. A single tear will not roll down my eye. You know, I'm not gonna. Yeah, just like, just enjoy it. Like, why do you need to publicly display that you're admiring this piece of literature?

Martin (00:36:36 --> 00:37:12)
I think also what something that readings really showcased was. Yeah, you can get the words on the page and be a brilliant writer, but if you're not a brilliant reader or at least presenter of your work, some of that can get lost. And so, like, I remember, like, some of we did student readings. Like, some of the student readings. Seeing people, like, so nervous or just not used to public speaking or even just reading their work aloud, it was. You're like, come on, you can do it, it's gonna be okay.

Sam (00:37:13 --> 00:37:23)
Martin, set up the student readings for us. What were those like? And, uh, you know, orient the someone who doesn't know what they are. And what was that like, uh, for you semester?

Dustin (00:37:23 --> 00:38:45)
The alumni are usually there for some damn reason. That's the day that they decide to bring the alumni in. And you're taking a part of your work which is usually somewhat polished, not always, because there's a couple of readings that I can make reference to that were about as polished as a turd. You get up there and you're reading it in two minutes. Something that's supposed to summarize how great of a writer you are.

Now, some people are just natural speakers and some of us, like myself and I, practice in front of a classroom so, you know, we can slip into that voice. Um, but most of the people that choose this as a profession reserved by nature, they put their emotions out in words on a page, not in front of a group. So you would always get this weird mix of people that had no idea what they were doing, people that were terrified of what they were doing, and a couple of people that had some experience doing it. So you're watching these readings and these people are coming through and rapid fire, you've got somebody on the side giving them time cues and everything else for when they're going to get cut off. It's really just a cluster.

Martin (00:38:46 --> 00:38:59)
You know, one student reading that I still think about to this day was Ellen, and she wrote something I don't. The book ended up being published, but it was something about like a deer or, um, a moose.

Sam (00:38:59 --> 00:39:20)
Oh, no, it was a moose and it had ticks on it. Uh, and this is a real thing that's happening in like the northeast, in like Maine and things like that. There's like this overpopulation of ticks and the ticks are just taking down moose. And so she wrote this beautiful scene of a like, basically a tick infested moose. And it was astonishing.

Martin (00:39:20 --> 00:39:21)
She's brilliant.

Sam (00:39:21 --> 00:39:28)
Yeah, it was great. And then she did publish that book. But, man, you sat there and you're like, Damn. Like, you really put a spell on it.

Martin (00:39:28 --> 00:39:34)
Yeah. So we had, like, the range of that where like, here we are six, seven years later even.

Sam (00:39:34 --> 00:39:36)
Maybe we're talking about the Taken festival.

Martin (00:39:36 --> 00:39:46)
We're talking about the Moose. But then you also have people that are up there, and they're like. You're like, come go to therapy. Like, this is not like your.

Sam (00:39:46 --> 00:40:08)
Right. They're writing personal essays. So you are getting two minute readings of personal essays. And what is that? What is the subject matter?

Obviously it's mom, it's dad, it's the workplace. It's trauma. And they just. Trauma bomb you. It's.

Martin (00:40:08 --> 00:40:50)
It's hard too. I think that's like a common misconception on what, like, memoir and creative nonfiction is like. Yes, I want you to, like, journal about your feelings, but at the end of the day, like, people are not reading essays, memoir, creative nonfiction to, like, be down in the dumps with you. You have to connect it to something. And I think, like, going back to David Yu, I remember he taught writing a personal essay class. And I remember, like, I'm not a big nonfiction writer, but I remember walking away from that class being like, cool, I could probably write two or three essays that I could connect to a bigger subject.

Sam (00:40:50 --> 00:41:20)
So he really praised one of your stories. I was in that class. And you wrote a story about your sister pulling out, uh, like a cyst, like popping a cyst on you. Yeah, he loved that. He actually said. He actually said, have you written essays before? And the. The subtext of that was do it more. Because what you did is you took all your fiction writing skills and you wrote a nonfiction story like, it was fiction. So it really brought the reader into that story, and it was very propulsive.

Martin (00:41:20 --> 00:41:20)
Thank you.

Dustin (00:41:21 --> 00:41:22)
I think also, though, that looks fantastic.

Martin (00:41:22 --> 00:41:24)
Oh, thanks, Martin.

Sam (00:41:24 --> 00:42:02)
They say, you know, make the particular general. Make it universal. Like, don't just mire us in. Don't make it navel gazing. Don't make it narcissistic.

Don't make it all about you. It's really. Why are. This is kind of like why you get an mfa because you have to be reminded that you have readers. People are going to read your work and they're gonna put it down if they don't like it.

There needs to be something in there for them. Like, don't waste their time, you know, and that's craft. But it's also subject matter. And Sometimes subject matter graded on you or the way it was treated. It's all about treatment.

Martin (00:42:02 --> 00:42:18)
Yeah. I think also, like, personal essays, specifically. I'm fine if I'm like, oh, I don't have that experience. But if it's good writing or if it's entertaining, that can sometimes be enough for me.

Sam (00:42:18 --> 00:42:20)
Yeah. Anything else on that, Marlon?

Dustin (00:42:20 --> 00:42:46)
Yeah, there's a story that I really want to bring up. And you guys will remember this instantly once I bring it up. There was somebody in a cohort that graduated. They do graduate readings as well as the readings that you do in front of everybody else. And this particular person was not in poetry. Okay. They were not a poet by any measure, but they started their reading with this kind of S and M bondage tribute point to their significant other.

Martin (00:42:46 --> 00:42:47)
Yeah.

Dustin (00:42:47 --> 00:43:33)
Because we did not sign up for this. And it's one of those things where that is such a. And look, far be it for me as somebody that's probably smut to say that there's no room for smut literature. There absolutely is. Um, but when you're just telling something to yourself and you're writing a story for an audience of one and then you're getting out there, you have the gall to put that just out there for that person while we're all sitting here waiting for you to get to the point.

That's not good writing. Dustin. You said navel gazing. That's gazing of a whole different level. What audience are you writing for at that point?

Martin (00:43:34 --> 00:44:41)
And it is okay if those are not the same. I will say, I think the MFA program sort of, like, gives you permission to write in a genre you've never written in before. Dustin, I'm similar to you where I have no interest in poetry. I don't like reading it. I don't really enjoy writing it.

But I remember taking a poetry class and being like, oh, cool. I can adapt and apply some of the things that I learned today to my fiction writing. Great. And then it's also like, yeah, I'll go write an essay. A personal essay.

Why not? And so that in those 10 days, you sort of get the opportunity to, like, see how else you want to express yourself? I've always sort of stayed in the lane of young adult fiction. I feel like that's my lane. But it's nice to swerve around when you can.

Sam (00:44:42 --> 00:45:46)
From poetry, you can learn language, right? There's just so much flexibility to language. And, um, you can learn symbolism, and, you know, it's the constraints of it, uh, can stretch your writing and your capacity for language in different ways. One of the things I want to talk about with MFAs, it's like there were different categories of students. Like, the three of us, we.

We're like. Like I said, we're lifers. We want to do this for the rest of our lives and get better. There were also. Martin, you pursued an MFA because you want to teach it and you wanted a credential.

What other categories or genres of students were there? Like, I kind of wondered if some just, like, wanted an MFA for whatever reason. I'm not even sure what that means. Like, maybe, you know, help them write the novel they all wanted to write. Or were some students there for vanity?

Dustin (00:45:46 --> 00:46:23)
There is a category of MFA students, and I clash with these type of students, uh, often. And I'm just going to use the term board housewife. It doesn't necessarily have to be a woman or somebody's wife, but these are people that I feel like that are there because they had a feeling that once their kids finished and went off to college, that they would go back and do something for themselves and publish a book. It's like when you get in a taxi cab and you tell the cabbie that you're a writer. He's like, oh, I thought about publishing a book when I retire, and you're ready to strangle him for it. I felt that this type of program, especially being low residency, attracted a lot of people in that category, and it drove me up a wall.

Sam (00:46:24 --> 00:46:29)
But because why? Because it clashed with your seriousness. Your. The fact that you.

Dustin (00:46:29 --> 00:47:06)
Look, I'm an academic at my court, and there needs to be academic. You know, you need to contribute academic value. If you're in an academic program, I'm not saying that you have to pioneer new research or new ways of writing or whatnot, but you have to be able to contribute to the academic environment. And these people weren't there to do that. They were there solely for self fulfillment, and not even self fulfillment at, oh, I've accomplished this great thing. I went and got a master's degree. Good for me. It's the type that's like, I've got something to say. And I found a way to get a captive audience. So here we are. Everybody look at me, everybody listen to me. And that's all I'm gonna contribute is me, me, me, me, me.

Martin (00:47:07 --> 00:48:53)
So I'd be so curious now, like post Covid, you know, during quarantine and lockdown, everyone who ever thought of writing a book, like, did it. And so I'd be curious now to see what that sort of student body looks like. And then on the other hand, I feel like I took several years off between undergrad and the MFA program. And I am so glad that I did because I went and lived five or six years, you know, between different cities, different states, and I like gobbled up all of these life experiences. I could not imagine going right from high school into undergrad, right from undergrad into grad school, because, uh, at that point all, you know, in your life is school.

So I think, like, I interact with high school students a lot in my job now, and I. They'll be like, yeah, you know, I eventually want to get my. Get a master's degree. And I'm always like, take a few years. Go work.

Go like, live your life. Because so much of the experiences that I lived between those years I brought with me to the program. And we had people in the program who they were, they went to high school, then they got their undergrad, then they went right into grad school. And I remember some people being like, yeah, I'm gonna get my PhD right after this. And it's just like, you're gonna spend all of your 20s in school.

Dustin (00:48:54 --> 00:49:09)
And that fiction's naive as well, right? Because you're still looking at everything through rose colored lenses. You're 20 years old and your entire life is ahead of you. You've got to get punched in the mouth a couple of times to be able to describe what it feels like to get punched in the mouth, you know?

Martin (00:49:09 --> 00:49:52)
Yes. And it's like, you know, now mid-30s. I'm like, oh, yeah, that was a good choice. And I had like. I'd also been like, not saying that I did it completely right, but like, I had applied to grad programs right after my undergrad, I'd even gotten into some and I was like, no, it doesn't feel like the right time. And so, I don't know. I think that plays a huge part in how you show up in the different cohorts of people that are in these grad programs. Because we had a huge age range. Like, we had, like, 22 year olds in classes with, like, people in their mid to late 60s and 70s. And it's just like, what a different life.

Sam (00:49:52 --> 00:50:31)
Sometimes you saw an older person with, like, so much experience, but they didn't have the talent, uh, to bring it to life. But then you saw younger students with all the talent in the world, but they had no life experience in their, you know, to actually apply it to. Because, like you said, Martin, like, getting punched in the mouth is like, you need to get fired. You need to get your heart broken. You need to fail. Like, you need to try and fail. And that's what gives your work its authority and it's what readers connect with. Otherwise, if you're just trying to make it up, it just is not going to be as rich, um, and interesting.

Martin (00:50:32 --> 00:51:14)
Yeah. And it's so much more than, like, the angsty artist type. Right. It's just like, I don't know, if you're not living a life, then you have nothing to write home about. And so, uh, for me, a big part of fiction, obviously it's pretend, it's fake. But 95% of my stories, of my ideas are based off of something that I have experienced in my life. And so the MFA also gives you the skills to like, take that and also fictionalize it so that you're not just like, the fiction isn't just like my autobiography with people's names changed.

Sam (00:51:14 --> 00:51:17)
Yeah. Anything else to add to that, Martin?

Dustin (00:51:17 --> 00:52:06)
It's one of those things where the experience has to come from somewhere. And if you try to make up the experience, it's going to come off as inauthentic. We had a young writer in our program, uh, one that, you know, Sam and I were pretty close to. Uh, she came to the program just out of college, but one thing she was very good at, she had a very idealistic world view of the world. Still very, you know, Disney esque is what we'll call it.

And she'll get a laugh out of that once she hears this. But she knew what she was good at in writing that type of writing. Okay. And as a result, she had limited life Experience. But what she did have experience, and she was able to apply to the papers.

Sam (00:52:07 --> 00:53:24)
We all have years behind us now, what you actually experienced. So I wonder, what if there was a gap for you? And. And I'll just say very quickly, I kind of was a little romantic about it. I kind of thought it was going to be dead poet society.

You know, like, we all get in a cave and just, like, read Byron and shit. And, uh, I was down. I actually. I got Sam. I think you were there.

Like, we were around like a fireplace reading some work. I just said it. Let's. Let's start reading something out loud. It was fun.

I just wanted to be really in it and extreme about it, I think. Um, but it wasn't like that at all. It wasn't like that at all. I mean, it was almost like high school in some places. Sometimes you were like, are we even in a writing program?

It was people just talking shit and making clicks and. I don't know, man. I just wanted to talk about literature the whole time, but I kind of felt like a, uh. That would have been like a faux pas. That would have been embarrassing.

Martin (00:53:24 --> 00:54:26)
Well, yeah, but I also think, like, the three of us gravitated towards each other. Monika, who we all love and admire very deeply and dearly. Like, we did have those conversations, and it wasn't necessarily like, all 30 people in the program like, having those conversations, but, like, just like any, I guess, quasi social situation, you find the people that you want to spend your time with. And I think we all did that very well. But I will also say I was of a similar mindset, where I was like, I actually thought going in that I was gonna be like, I knew nothing. Like, the worst writing that anyone had ever seen. People were gonna read it and be like, this chick should give up. And I'm not saying that I was the best person to walk through the program, but I think you go in, anyone who can be, like, hypercritical of their own work, like, you go in with a little bit of nerves, and you're like, okay, let's see what happens.

Sam (00:54:27 --> 00:54:32)
What about you, Martin? What was the gap between, uh, what you expected and what you experienced?

Dustin (00:54:33 --> 00:55:50)
I felt more in love with the campus and the program, if I'm being honest. I thought that was. I still had to, uh, you know, throw at Walden Pond kind of thing. Oh, I'm going to go to this kind of bucolic, beautiful, you know, whatever scenic place, and it's going to help my writing. And just like, you know, both of you said, very clicky, very, you've got to find the two or three people that you're going to grab onto the closest and suck all the energy from that kind of thing.

And, uh, there were those moments that that romanticization that Justin was talking about was met. There's some of, some of the best conversations I've ever had about writing happened to that program. But it wasn't a 24, 7, 10 day long, you know, literary love fest. It was, it, you know, it was like being at a job a lot time, which I wasn't expecting. It was a grind.

Sam (00:55:51 --> 00:55:53)
Damn. Um, do you. You went to church football camp.

Dustin (00:55:53 --> 00:56:01)
They rented. So the church owned the property. They rented the property from the church. But yeah, I mean, I grew up in Tennessee, man. We would have like, services.

Martin (00:56:01 --> 00:56:03)
Everything's at church. Yeah.

Sam (00:56:04 --> 00:56:14)
Wow. Um, I think we're just going to have to just conclude the MFA questions right now and just talk about, talk about church. Yeah. And your football experience. What position did you play?

Dustin (00:56:14 --> 00:56:32)
I was a wide receiver. Not a very good one. I played, dude, I never made it past second or third string. I'm not an athlete in the football sense by any means, but I also, uh, ran track and did stuff like that in high school. And football is basically just something for me to do in the fall day and change.

Sam (00:56:32 --> 00:57:25)
And it helps in writing a lot of. Maybe we can talk about this. A lot of post workshop feedback, like what you do is you're revising, you know, what comes out of you. On first draft, they call it the vomit draft, the big spill. It needs a lot of work.

You need many drafts and sometimes drawing on my sports background or whatever. Sam, you just ran a marathon. I mean, this is an endurance event. Writing a book, uh, you feel like you're never gonna finish and you have to keep going back to it again and again and again. Even when you're done, you have to go back to it.

Martin (00:57:25 --> 00:58:31)
I think also I have such a vivid memory of after my first workshop. So my first semester, first workshop the next morning, like waking up at 5am going and sitting in like the student center and just like reading these notes that I had taken and like starting already to make a revision plan because it's so fresh, you're like in it. So you're so motivated and you so badly want to start working on it. And I just remember like by the time workshop started that day, I was like, cool, I've already been up awake working for three and a half hours. Like, here we go. But it's just like, that's what you're there for. That's like such the benefit of a low residency mfa. I was a preschool teacher at the time and I remember like my co teachers being like, oh, the kids miss you. And just like not even responding to the text because I was like, you're just so in that bubble for 10 days and then the bubble pops and you're on the bus home back to New York City and you're like, what the hell did I just go through?

Dustin (00:58:32 --> 00:58:40)
You know, I'll say this. When it's good, it's good. As far as, you know, our program goes, I can remember a couple of instances where it wasn't good.

Martin (00:58:40 --> 00:58:41)
Yeah.

Dustin (00:58:41 --> 00:58:52)
So Dustin, do you remember I finished up my MFA and came back for two post grad semesters and did a certificate in fiction. And you and I were in a, uh, workshop group one of those semesters.

Sam (00:58:52 --> 00:59:00)
It was the first time because I was an adult and you were in children's or in young adult. And we finally got a chance to be in workshop together. Right.

Dustin (00:59:00 --> 00:59:05)
Do you remember the story that I wrote about the woman and the eunuch in the church?

Sam (00:59:05 --> 00:59:09)
Yeah, it was pretty profane, you know, Deliberately so, right? It was.

Dustin (00:59:09 --> 00:59:56)
Yeah, right. And I'm not going to mention names as far as the mentor goes, but in that scene, without getting into too much detail, the eunuch is trying to describe what female anatomy is like. And he has no fucking clue what he's talking about. He doesn't, because he's, you know, he's never been anywhere near a woman. And our workshop leader got highly critical of that work because it's just like, well, that's not what that's like at all. And I'm like, that's kind of the point. And she was in such a hurry to. And we've talked about stuff like this before. It was kind of like, I got to prove how much of male you are and how chauvinistic you are and how, you know, I'm a feminist and I know this about women and everything else. Even a professional quote, unquote, missed the forest for the trees in that moment. You remember that?

Sam (00:59:56 --> 01:01:49)
The woke mind virus, woke ideology, whatever you want to call it. It's the kind of, uh. The kind of, uh, you know, preference for, you know, racial and general bias. It's, uh, certain virtue signaling in one's work or in one's comments. I remember it started.

I remember it starting in 2019 when I was in the program and someone brought up the idea of micro expressions. And then it came to land acknowledgments before readings. And then I read a whole story that I had to, you know, put feedback on that was, uh, you know, told from the perspective of a trans character. So I was really thrown off by the use of first person plural. You know, they instead of he, she.

And I just made a comment like, this is. I just got a little bit confused as a reader. But I noticed that the air got so tense on these topics, you know, because it's like they were very sensitive and it was a very progressive and good thing to do. Um, if you were talking about these types of things and treating them in your work, and it was like this kind of virus just kind of spread, and it spread throughout the literary community. To be honest, everyone, you know, everyone knows this.

Dustin (01:01:50 --> 01:03:35)
I do think people deserve to be treated with basic dignity and respect. I do believe that if someone has, it always goes back in. The example that I always use for everybody is Muhammad Ali. When he changed his name from Cassius Clay to Muhammad Ali, a lot of people did not want to call him by that name. And I think you have a choice to be called what you want.

What you don't have a choice to do is to try to make somebody feel guilty for every little thing that doesn't come out exactly how you think it should come out. And I think there's a lot of that in the literary world. There's a lot of literary apologizing going on right now. And it makes it tough because you almost be like a culture coach or a sensitivity advisor just to put anything down on paper. And at some point as a creative mind, you just gotta say, no, I'm going to do the work that I'm going to do and hell with the rest of it.

It's the kind of things where you're worried about what you're going to say because you're going to get canceled. Well, if you're not something that can be canceled, they can't cancel you. I think there needs, there needs to be a reckoning when it comes to this stuff like that. You can't continuously beat people over the head for stuff that in the grand scheme of things matter on a micro level but not really on a macro level. And when we're boiling it down to microaggressions and land acknowledgments in a state where it's not even a discussion about how the state has handled that particular Native American side of things.

Along those lines, it gets to the point of ridiculousness. It really does. It gets to the point where I truly believe, and this is going to be a hot take, but it's for show. You're trying to show everybody how woke you are. Mhm.

Sam (01:03:35 --> 01:04:01)
Like a virtuous. Yeah, yeah. How you know, you're a good person, you're considering all perspectives. And I found it so weird because I was like, we are creative writers, we're artists. Like we are the least bigoted people in this part of the. Like, we're Sensitive. You literally have to exercise your empathetic abilities to be able to do this correctly. Yeah. So what are we doing here?

Martin (01:04:01 --> 01:04:46)
I think also, like, words and stories are so powerful, and I think that can be enough. Like, you don't have to put in all these different types of characters just to say you did it. I remember someone read my manuscript and they were like, well, it's not very diverse. And I was like, okay, that's fine. Feedback, but also like, I'm gonna write my story and you're gonna write your story. And they gave that feedback in a sense of like, it's not very diverse. And you still do a good job of like, a whole person character.

Sam (01:04:47 --> 01:04:47)
So I don't.

Martin (01:04:48 --> 01:05:08)
I think it's like, yes, it's in the literary community, but I mean, I think it's just like a bigger topic in general. Like, why do you have to make it so known that you believe in human rights? Why can't you just, like, let your writing do the talking?

Sam (01:05:09 --> 01:05:26)
Yeah. It is part of a bigger. A broader cultural movement. You know, we don't need to go crazy here. But the progressive far left, they kind of ate culture. They own and dominate culture. The movies and TV shows, we watch the commercials.

Martin (01:05:26 --> 01:05:26)
Uh.

Sam (01:05:27 --> 01:05:52)
Ah, I'm sure, Martin, you could speak on academia, um, and there's a lot of ink that's been spilt on how it's hard to have a conservative viewpoint, or it's hard to just have, uh, ideological diversity, to kind of just think different or be contradictory, or you're just going to be in big trouble. And, uh, I wonder what you think about that.

Dustin (01:05:53 --> 01:07:29)
Well, and that's the discussion I've had with a lot of people. And here's the point where the, uh. Well, per se, I'm going to gently push back on that. But what I will say is this. And I'll say this kind of my soapbox.

The progressive left in America is not the same as the revolutionary left or the working class left or anything like that. They have turned identity politics into a weapon. And it's a weapon that allows them to ignore working class politics, which is really kind of the genesis of everything that boils down when it comes to this type of condemnation that comes at all times. There's certain things, obviously, that need to be condemned and condemned loudly. But when you spend all day criticizing everything through the lens of social justice, it's not a benefit to the literary world, it's not a benefit to academia, it's not a benefit to anybody.

You're not going to teach anybody anything. If you're not going to take the time to teach them. And, you know, you're not going to help anybody learn to write by sitting there and looking at Sam's manuscript and saying, well, that's not very diverse. It's just kind of like people that say, well, Friends is about six white people in New York. Okay, Everybody loves Friends.

Or people that criticize Seinfeld because, you know, well, first off, Jerry's foolish. I think all the other actors are too. But above and beyond that, that doesn't change the fact that it's entertainment. And there's plenty of other things to criticize Jerry Seinfeld for, but the fact that his show wasn't diverse enough is not one of them. And, uh, if that is the sole takeaway that you're getting from any kind of creative work, then you have my pity, because you're getting nothing from it except for what's going to make you angry.

Sam (01:07:30 --> 01:08:06)
Yeah. The thing I think I react to so strongly is that I understand there's, like, a hypocrisy at the. At the base of it, where it's like, you can tell that sometimes, most of the time, there's, like, no interest in actual outcomes or results. Whether it's like racial and gender diversity or something like that. It's just fashionable. It's a way to think of yourself as a good person, as a virtuous person. And that's why they call it virtue signaling. And if you wanna talk about how this land that we're on used to be Native Americans land, let's give it back.

Dustin (01:08:07 --> 01:08:13)
Yeah. Exactly how much time have you spent with Native Americans? Look, I have degrees from two different Native American institutions, all right?

Martin (01:08:13 --> 01:08:13)
Yeah.

Dustin (01:08:13 --> 01:09:06)
You're not returning your land back to the Mohegan tribe. You're not making reparations. You're not sitting here thinking, okay, what can I do to help Native Americans that are in situations like they are now? I'm going to quote the worst piece of media in the history of all media. But for one time, I had a good point.

Family Guy. There's an episode of Family Guy because he got the dog on Family Guy, and he's super liberal and super progressive, but he really doesn't do shit about it. And one of the conservative characters gives him a lecture about how he's never at the soup kitchen. He only dates women for their bodies, and he talks about all of this stuff, and he doesn't do anything to contribute change to society. You can sit there and talk about stolen land all you want.

Sam (01:09:07 --> 01:09:49)
Uh, you don't really believe this shit. Sometimes you think of, like, certain protests. A lot of people are out there for the right reasons, and they have. They are advocating for certain rights. It's coming from a place of their heart.

And that's great. At a movie like Eddington that really kind of, like, takes hits. This type of performative virtue signaling with a sledgehammer. Right. Sometimes you wonder, like, hey, if the cameras were off, would you still be doing this?

Martin (01:09:49 --> 01:10:32)
Yeah, I think it's important, very important to distinguish, like, some people use writing as a social justice tool. And if that is who you are and that's your story to tell, I think that is really great. But then if you're just entering this camp of, like, oh, uh, shit, like, I need to check the box of diversity, and it's not something that you do in your everyday life, and you're just doing it because someone told you, like, your cast of characters needs to be more diverse or your setting needs to be more diverse from a fiction standpoint, you see right through that.

Sam (01:10:32 --> 01:10:35)
Um, yeah, but if you say it out loud, like, good luck with that.

Martin (01:10:36 --> 01:10:53)
Right? But that's also, like. That's the. I guess maybe the downside of, like, workshop is you have to, like, it's political, but you also have to, like. If you believe something that you're gonna say, you sort of have to stand your ground knowing that there's going to be pushback.

Dustin (01:10:53 --> 01:11:46)
The person that I was alluding to aside, I never got that kind of feedback when it came to those issues from any of, you know, not from Laura, not from David, not from Brendan. None of the feedback that I got from that was that. I remember there was some. Another, you know, instance where I was teaching a lesson on, uh, Bo Burnholm's poetry book because he kind of ripped off Shel Silverstein. But he taught.

He had a plumbing there called I fuck Sluts. I mentioned that in my thing. And then I ended up getting a 10 minute lecture about using language that was demeaning towards women from the person that was evaluating my lecture. Ah. And it's like, with all due respect, fuck you.

Sam (01:11:46 --> 01:12:51)
But it also comes with these, like, social costs at the same time, you know, so you have to kind of walk that line. I remember, like, there's a great documentary with Will Ferrell where he goes across country with his old friend who transitioned from a man to a woman. And I was like, yes, that's really. That's beautiful. Like, we are experiencing his transition and how hard it is through the lens of someone who is ignorant about it.

And he's just being kind and he's being inquisitive, he's being supportive. And I thought that was beautiful. And if you tell me a story like that, that's nonfiction, but if you tell me a story like that, uh, I'm going to respond very, very favorably. But if you're just telling a social justice story to make yourself feel better or be fashionable or signal your virtue, it's not going to smell. Right?

Martin (01:12:52 --> 01:12:59)
Yeah. Because you can tell who walks the walk and who is just doing it to check the box.

Sam (01:12:59 --> 01:13:51)
Yeah. So it's like, it's not just. There's like, economic incentives here. Right. You know, like, because an agent has to pitch a book to an acquisition editor and everybody.

It's about money. This is about money making money. So what's going to play well right now? Well, I mean, diverse forces and it's obviously like, how could you possibly not think that? I'm right now in the same part of my mind thinking, this is wonderful.

In the name of representation. So many voices haven't been out there. This is great. This is awesome. But there's been a bit of a pendulum, uh, swinging to the other side where there's economic incentive to.

Martin (01:13:51 --> 01:14:19)
it all I think that's the best. The hypocrisy. Because I think we can all agree that we need diverse books, especially for kids and teenagers. Like, they need to see a, uh, wide range of characters to see themselves on the page, but we don't need to. Like, that doesn't have to be why you sit down to write a story. If that's why you sit down to write a story about diverse characters, my opinion is that you're not the person to write it.

Dustin (01:14:20 --> 01:15:23)
I wrote a book about Che Guevara, a children's book. Not once did I mention he's Argentinian. He's from Latin American. I never mentioned his gender identity. I never mentioned his race.

Um, I barely mentioned his politics because it was part of the story. I did talk about socioeconomics. I told a story about two friends that rode a motorcycle across South America or Latin America. And it's a good story. And those stories will come out and those themes will come out when you do it.

But if you're trying to do it just for the sake of doing it, like Sam said, it's going to feel artificial. And that's the thing that you got to keep in mind when. Especially when you're doing writing for children and young adults. Kids have an incredibly good bullshit detector. They're gonna know when they're being pandered to, and they're gonna set it down and they're gonna move on to something that they can relate more closely to.

Martin (01:15:24 --> 01:16:38)
I think that's just good writing advice in general. If you're gonna sit down to write a story, like, make it authentic to yourself, that's how. It doesn't have to be autobiographical by any means, but, like, I don't know. Maybe this is just how my brain works. But I'm not gonna sit down and write a story about a very wealthy girl that grew up on the Upper east side of New York.

That was not my experience growing up. And I think what makes my writing so good. No, so that is my strength. My strength is pulling from my own story, my own past or the stories of others that I've witnessed. If someone is being genuine on the page, you want to read that.

If someone's just putting words down to, like, come across as, like, brilliant or so Switched on. Like so for the people you see right through it and you're like, okay, we get it. Like, go start a TikTok account and like share videos about that. I'm all set.

Dustin (01:16:40 --> 01:17:07)
Oh, goodness. It's extremely frustrating for me because ultimately, at the end of the day, there's a finite amount of time that we have to create. And if you're wasting your time trying to create something that's going to make absolutely everybody happy, then you're going to make nobody happy. And it's not, it's not going to be good work. It's not going to be good work.

Sam (01:17:09 --> 01:18:39)
Always had great things to say. Always very intelligent. He used to be like in the government, I think it was. He was an attache or something. Yeah, and guy's like legit, you know, and you wouldn't, you wouldn't like, know it.

Cause he's just so like wholesome and friendly. But I remember he, he used to write stories about the south, uh, the bayou. And he wrote a story about a young girl getting, uh, ensnared in um, like an ICE raid or an immigration, uh, situation. And the teacher said, you know, what are you, what are you writing about a young girl for? Like, you're a 60, 70 year old guy.

And you know, he was kind of like, oh, but I've seen this and stuff. And, but there is a point there, you know, it's not your experience and whatever. But uh, I remember saying to him, like, to your point, Sam? I remember saying like, dude, write about the government. He told me, I guess, I don't know, off the record or at lunch or something.

He told me that he knew a whole hell of a lot about one of the biggest spies, a Cuban spy who infiltrated like the highest levels of American government. And I was like, um, why is that not in workshop? You know, like, dude, that shit's awesome. And so we kind of sometimes have a. I mean, he'd have to run it through the Pentagon and stuff. There's all sorts of crazy shit.

Dustin (01:18:39 --> 01:18:39)
You have to do it.

Martin (01:18:39 --> 01:18:43)
Yeah, I was gonna say, we're gonna get. There's gonna be a white van waiting for us outside.

Sam (01:18:43 --> 01:19:06)
There's all these risks. I feel like when you're writing about social justice, you think you're taking like, risks and maybe you are. Like, maybe they're emotional risk, but like, take actual risks. Like, that's Your personal experience. And it's dangerous and it's going to be very interesting. Cause you're letting people into this like secret world that you were a part of, like, tell me that story.

Martin (01:19:06 --> 01:20:18)
I think also, like, from a writing perspective, you have to really love and care about your characters because you're gonna spend a lot of time with them. Especially if you're writing a novel. We've all written novels. We know that it's not a one month thing. And then you're done.

You have to like your ideas, your characters, your settings, you have to invest yourself in them. And so that like whenever people are like, I really want to write a book, where should I start? Where do you get your ideas? That's a very common question. Where do you get your ideas?

Sam (01:20:18 --> 01:20:59)
In the context of MFAs. I wonder, Martin, what you think about this is that you can have a long conversation about what MFAs teach. They teach craft, they don't really teach business. They don't really teach the business, literally publishing side of things. But they also don't really teach you how to be creative.

Because being creative, being an artist or whatever, it's kind of like a disposition, it's kind of like an attitude, it's kind of like a personality type. You gotta be a little bit crazy. You know, your mind is always going, the gears are always going. You're always thinking things up and turning them over in your head. And you gotta have the guts to kind of like throw it down.

Dustin (01:20:59 --> 01:21:53)
Uh, I've always referred to it as a vocation. It's like if you're going to be a priest for the right reasons, or a religious, you know, spiritual, you know, guide or whatever, you have to just know that's what you are. Some people just know that they're going to be car mechanics. Some people just know that they're going to get it when the finance or whatever. And some people are just creative.

You just have to know that about yourself. I can't to both of your point, and it's a beautiful point. I can't teach you how to come up with a fucking story. If you don't know what your story is, then what are we talking about? And no MFA program is going to teach that.

Because if you can get to an MFA program, you don't know what your story is, you're not going to be in an MFA program for long. And I think we can all think of examples of that that went through our program. And there's people that, even though the stories were bad or the stories that we didn't like, at least they had a story and they knew where to go with it. You can work with that, but you can't tell somebody how to be creative. You just are.

Martin (01:21:54 --> 01:23:09)
Yeah, I went into the program with a, I, uh, think kind of interesting background where I was one of maybe the only people there that had always wanted to be a writer. Like, I've wanted to be a writer since I was a kid. Like, you could go back in my third grade yearbook, it says, when I grow up, I'm going to be a writer, was always the answer. And so you going into a program where some people had lived full careers, and now they're coming back to this or starting this from the beginning. It's.

It's such an interesting dynamic. But when you meet people who like to their core, they're just like, I just want to tell stories. Like, those are the people that you latch onto and you learn a lot from because you're learning from their experience, but you're also learning from how they approach storytelling. I mean, like I said, I have a very creative background. I did professional theater, did all of that before even getting the mfa.

Dustin (01:23:09 --> 01:23:11)
Very, very expensive degree.

Sam (01:23:13 --> 01:23:21)
So the big question is, do you need an mfa? You want to be a writer? You want to publish? Do you need one or do you not need one?

Dustin (01:23:21 --> 01:23:23)
Stephen King doesn't have a fucking mfa.

Sam (01:23:23 --> 01:23:30)
He does not. And I don't think, uh, Hemingway went through an MFA program. Uh, Fitzgerald.

Dustin (01:23:30 --> 01:24:35)
But I was published before I ever stepped onto campus, you know, and there are other people that were the same way. You don't need an mfa. It's really helpful if you want to teach writing, because it kind of gives you that, okay, this person has went through the same to be a great writer, you absolutely do not need to be an fmfa. Some of the most brilliant people that I know have never set foot in a college classroom. I'll give you a perfect example.

There's a sports journalist that I follow in new media. His name is John Boyce. We call him John Boss. Um, he does a lot of creative stuff for a YouTube, uh, channel called Secret Base. And he's one of the most viewed sports journalists on YouTube at all of all time.

And all he has is a high school diploma. But he's creative. He knows how to write what he knows. And there was nothing in our MFA program that was going to make him a better writer. I will say that without hesitation.

Martin (01:24:36 --> 01:26:01)
You can't teach someone how to have voice. I think I don't regret going through the program. I don't regret the degree I, uh, think it led to. A lot of. A lot of story things were unlocked for me in those two years.

I will say maybe my misconception was I was gonna walk out of there with connections to have an agent upon graduation, with connections to, like, publish. And they don't talk about that. I graduated in 2021, and then it took me two more years after that to get my first book published. And that is not, like, an uncommon story. I think the days of, like, you walk off the graduation stage and into onto the New York Times bestsellers list, like, don't go into the program thinking that.

But I think if anyone is wanting to do it, it's not gonna teach you to be a writer, but it's gonna give you a lot of tools to unlock and enhance the skills you already have. I don't think you can teach someone to be a writer. I think you are born with it or you develop it along the way. I don't think you can, say, sit down and write a novel. I don't think it works that way.

Sam (01:26:01 --> 01:27:56)
Yeah. The one thing I really loved about the program was that, uh, you had to read so much. So part of your time away from the residencies was you put together a reading list, and so you'd have to read, like, 10, 15 novels. And I did. I read everything from.

You know, I really enjoyed Edgar Allan Poe. I just felt it was very dramatic and entertaining. Um, I read a lot of, like, the existential writers Albert Camus and Kafka and stuff. And that kind of, like, gave me a new vibration to my own work. I started to lean more into, like, narrative summary and, like, I think just exposing myself to all that literature in a very intense spurt was, like.

Was good medicine for me. I wonder sometimes, like, if an MFA can teach you how to tell a story, because I think that's. That's what the three of us are pretty good at. Like, you know, you can be good with language. And I met.

Met a lot of people in program who are good with language. I could kind of give a. About language. My. I'm here to tell you a story and move you.

You know, I want to convey information through that story, and I wanted to have structure. I wanted to have. I want you. I want to throw you in the river, and you're gonna go down the river and you're gonna keep turning pages. I want it to have a propulsive quality.

So one of the things I learned was I need to study character. I need to develop character better and make them more multidimensional and things like that. So, yeah, at the end of the day, I think we're just telling each other stories, and you can learn Freytag's Pyramid, and you can learn the Hero's Journey and so on and so forth. But there's some people you mentioned, the sports writer Martin, uh, Mitch Albom, and Tuesdays With Maury and all his other books. He never got an mfa.

Martin (01:27:56 --> 01:28:35)
Yeah, some people just have it. They just have that storytelling ability. And like you said, Dustin, like, all of the reading that you do in the MFA program, that is probably something I maybe wouldn't have done if I weren't in the program. I'm an avid reader. I love to read. But would I sit down with a, uh, Morgan Matson novel and, like, deconstruct the chapters and the words and the characters? Probably not. I would just sit down, uh, on a beach chair and read and enjoy it. Yeah. And so it took me a while to get back to reading for enjoyment.

Sam (01:28:35 --> 01:28:36)
I've never recovered.

Martin (01:28:36 --> 01:28:37)
Yeah.

Sam (01:28:37 --> 01:28:55)
And, no, I was that way before. I was pulling apart Michael Crichton books for years. Oh, what'd he do there? How'd he open? What's the hook? And, uh. Oh, like, how does he dramatize, uh, scientific information? How does he blend fact and fiction? And our director said, you'll never be able to read fiction again after this program. I was like, I'm Already there, dear.

Dustin (01:28:56 --> 01:29:39)
And I'm gonna be honest, guys. It's probably been two years since I picked up a book and read it cover to cover. It's been that long. Now I do a lot of new media. I watch, you know, a lot of, you know, television stuff on, you know, Netflix or Amazon prime or whatever, when the journalism, like, on YouTube and stuff like that. I've gotten to be very visual with a lot of media that I have. But we spent so much time deconstructing books, books that we loved, books that we hated, books we'd never heard of before. I won't say it's killed the joy in me as a reader, because I still think that if something's good enough, I can read it. But I think that's one thing that MFA program does do, is that it completely radically changes how you're going to read anything for the rest of your life.

Sam (01:29:40 --> 01:30:50)
I have a novel coming out in a few months, and I'm going through the final proofs now. And I had this M book. It's a novella. It's 160 pages. This book was done, done laid out, done PDF.

And I had 182 comments on the PDF, delete this word that sent like, change this sentence. You know, it wasn't typos. It was. It was reading it very, very closely and saying on page. Oh, shit, on page 32 you said this.

And on, um, page 157, you said this. And they don't line up. Or you're repetitive here. Or would she really say it this way? Or can I say it a little bit shorter?

This is done, done material. This isn't like, in a word document, first draft. And I just went over it again, and I have 28 comments. So it just never ends. And it's because you become a close reader, you smell your own bullshit, and you learn to spot what readers will react to.

Martin (01:30:50 --> 01:31:16)
But it's also like, you started writing that book five years ago. So much has happened in your life in five years. I had the same experience. I was at a reading of my published book, and I was reading it out loud, and in my head, I'm like, oh, my God, you gotta change that. And I'm like, too late. It's already out there. I was 27 when I started that book.

Sam (01:31:16 --> 01:31:19)
Right. Sometimes the very premise is adolescent.

Martin (01:31:19 --> 01:31:19)
Yeah.

Sam (01:31:19 --> 01:31:25)
And you realize now you're an Adult. And you don't even respond to the concept anymore. But you gotta see it through.

Martin (01:31:25 --> 01:32:24)
She's like, one of my students is reading your book right now. And I just get to sit at my desk and watch her read it. And it maybe a little emotional to hear her tell me that. And she was like, she has to write. We do 10 minutes independent reading each class, and then they have to, in their journals, write two sentences about what they just read.

And she was like, I just looked at her journal and it said, morgan is starting to realize the truth about Bailey. And that was always what I dreamed of. I write for children and young adults so that children and young adults read it. And so for my friend to give me that front row access to this ninth grader who's reading it and enjoying it and freaking out and flipping out about what's happening. That's why you do it.

Sam (01:32:25 --> 01:33:44)
And it was very sort of action driven. It was very commercial writing, you know, a lot of dialogue and all that. And then you read, I think, the Healing Book or A Case of Aphantasia. I can't remember which one. It was more influenced by Poe and a lot of Kafka, to be honest.

And I remember Kim, who's stranger really had. So I really kind of, like, I told it. I told the story more like a. Like, it had like a folklorish feel to it. It was like, had this sweeping quality.

It was a lot of narrative summary. I deliberately tried not to use dialogue, which is just wild. I, like, nested the dialogue into the narration. And it felt so experimental and interesting to me. I was like, how can I tell this story the way I want to tell it?

Like from around a campfire? How do I just put a spell on you? And I remember I wrote that story. And then you said something I'll never forget, Martin, in workshop, you said, I like a case of infantasia 10 times more than I like the Empathy Academy. And that was.

Dustin (01:33:44 --> 01:33:51)
I remember exactly what I said. I said, this is Kafka's the Hunger Artist. And the Hunger Artist was good.

Sam (01:33:53 --> 01:33:54)
Oh, shit.

Dustin (01:33:54 --> 01:34:03)
That's exactly what I said. But you're right. Those were my exact words. This is dusted. And the other stuff is Dustin tried to write like Michael Crichton.

Sam (01:34:03 --> 01:34:52)
Because what I did was I said, dude, you're not Michael Crichton. That guy got a fucking Harvard MD and he was a different guy. And that's what you do in the MFA program is you break with your models. You break with your heroes and idols, artists. I don't care if you're painting, dancing, writing, whatever.

Filmmaking especially. You mimic your models. You copy them. That's the. It's the way it always happens.

Martin (01:34:53 --> 01:35:46)
They ask me two questions. They're like, number one, I want to write a book. Or they say. They say, I want to write a book. What should I do?

Or they say, I want to run a marathon. What should I do? And my answer for both of those is like, well, do you enjoy it? If you don't enjoy reading, you're not going to enjoy writing a book. If you don't enjoy running, you're sure as hell not going to enjoy 26 miles of it.

It's about discipline. And the MFA program taught us even more discipline. Because I would argue that the three of us already went into the program very disciplined with our work ethic, our jobs, our lives. But like you said, it also, like, it almost gives you permission to be like, okay, yeah, we get it. You love Sarah Dessen.

Sam (01:35:47 --> 01:36:00)
And that's what teachers and, Martin, that's what you helped for me is like. It's to give you permission to be yourself. And it actually takes a hell of a long time as an artist to be who you are.

Martin (01:36:01 --> 01:36:13)
I think even to this day, like, I'm still. I've got how many manuscripts under my belt? Uh, each new one, I sit down, I'm like, oh, shit. I. You know what? Yeah, I guess I have been doing that. Let me Try it this way.

Sam (01:36:13 --> 01:36:14)
This undiscovered territory.

Martin (01:36:15 --> 01:36:36)
That's what I love so much about writing, and that's what I loved so much about the MFA program is that you just like, in this headspace to, like, play, to have fun. If you don't have fun writing, if you don't have fun creating, like, go work a 9 to 5, like, go back to your desk job.

Sam (01:36:37 --> 01:37:58)
And those people can expose you to different processes for actually making art. And one of the things you what rubbed off on me from you, Sam, is that you write without an outline. And when I came into the program, I wrote without lines. So my first two novels I self published, and they had very long outlines. And then I started to write without an outline.

And A Case of Aphantasia was written by the seat of my pants without an outline. I just sat down and did it. And that was fun because when I came into the program, I kind of felt like I was a little stale. I felt like I wasn't having any fun. I wasn't even sure if I love this shit anymore.

Cause it's hard. That's something I feel like doesn't artistic. And writers, they don't say it enough, but it is fun. And I think what's fun about it, why you keep doing it, is because the discovery process is actually really satisfying. Oh, yeah.

That was. I surprised myself. Or. Man, that felt good. To kind of like be in that place of uncertainty and just like, break through, find a, uh, creative solution and stuff like that.

Martin (01:37:58 --> 01:38:16)
I think of, like, Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn, and I'm like, that was so fun to read. I bet she had so much fun writing it, because that is such a twisty book. And I remember when I was like, yeah, I don't write with an outline. I remember the majority of people being like, you're nuts. This girl's nuts.

Sam (01:38:16 --> 01:38:20)
Yeah, because how do you build in the twists and how do you keep things straight?

Dustin (01:38:20 --> 01:38:28)
Because the second you come to the point where that twist is gonna be, it goes right down on paper. You're like, ah, uh, here's what I'm gonna do right here. And you do it.

Martin (01:38:28 --> 01:39:11)
Yes. I mean, my first drafts are garbage. I have to go back and fluff them up and add in twists and turns here and there. But if I know how it's gonna start and I know how it's gonna end, everything in between that, it's just me and my computer, and I'm having a lot of fun creating and doing. And if you don't love and have fun with what you do, not just writing everything in your life, you're gonna feel stale. You're gonna feel like it's work. I don't feel like I'm working. When I sit down to write, it feels like it's, like, not a hobby because I take it very seriously, but it feels it's enjoyable.

Sam (01:39:11 --> 01:39:14)
I tell you what, though, revisions fucking work, you know?

Martin (01:39:14 --> 01:39:34)
Even then, though, you're like, oh, man, I go through. And as I'm writing the first draft, I make a list of things that I already know in the back of my head. I'm gonna have to go back. And. And then when you get to go back and tackle it and you're like, okay, this is manageable because I already did the hard part. The idea is already fleshed out.

Sam (01:39:34 --> 01:39:35)
True. But it's hard in a different way.

Martin (01:39:35 --> 01:39:44)
The character's already there. It's hard in a different way. For sure. That definitely feels more work than fun. But storytelling is fun. Fiction is entertainment.

Sam (01:39:44 --> 01:39:49)
That's what Kurt Vonnegun said. He's like, we're just entertaining. You've got to entertain the reader.

Martin (01:39:49 --> 01:40:14)
Yeah. And whether you write fiction for adults, fiction for children. Kids are picking up books at the beginning of their lives because teachers are telling them you have to go home and read for 15 minutes a day. But a good book is enough to make a child a lifelong reader. And a good book is enough to make an adult who hasn't picked up a book in 10 years fall back in love with reading.

Dustin (01:40:14 --> 01:40:47)
And it's also enough to help find out who the next writers are going to be. And that's kind of part of what of it too. Everybody has that work where they read it. They're like, you know what? I can do this. I want to do this. Here's my idea. Let's see how I'm going to do it. And that right there, it's something I enjoy as a professor, is that I'll have a student in my class, and they'll write something good, and I'll give them feedback. And it's that aha moment. And you're like, okay, this person's going to do a little bit more than m. Almost everybody else in the class, because that switch flipped for them.

Sam (01:40:47 --> 01:41:05)
There's a lot I kind of felt like we could talk about, about what's potentially like broken about the MFA model. And does do MFMA programs hurt literature by creating, like, a homogenized style? You know, there's. I think there's those very interesting conversations. And if you want to say anything about it, please, please do.

Dustin (01:41:06 --> 01:43:13)
You're telling people for $20,000 that you can come in and we'll teach you how to be a writer. And you get the kind of people that are arrogant enough to believe that they're going to become a writer just because they were in an MFA program. A lot of the MFA programs, I hate to say this, unfortunately, are diploma millish in the sense that you're handing people a degree, an MFA that says that they can write and that they can create, and they really can't do either one. And you know, the cost of these MFA programs, and, you know, I'm glad I've got my mfa. I'm never going to get the return on investment that I invested in getting it, but I'm glad I've got it.

But these are huge boosts to the bottom line. I remember hearing somewhere, and I'm going to be vague about saying this, but the institution where we did our MFA program, that program, uh, contributed something. 60 Or 70% of the tuition dollars that came into the program that were paid cash, not financial aid, Pell grants, student loans, stuff like that. Most of the money that came in, it was hard cash, came from students in the MFA program because it's a different type of learner. You've created a product to meet the needs of a certain class of people, whether that's professionals like me that want to do this or people that just need their ego stroked.

And I would say professionals and include everybody in this conversation. Obviously, you're putting together people that are there for the right reasons and people that are there for the wrong reasons, but the institution doesn't care. At the end of the day, that $20,000 check is going to clear before the semester starts. And they can pay administration fees, they can pay members of staff that necessary, don't necessarily need to be there. We can name examples of that load salaries of those administrations, and it ends up being Something that is just hand over fist.

Sam (01:43:13 --> 01:43:37)
Yeah. And it ends up being kind of a burden on the peers and the faculty because if someone's in there because they're not prepared or they're not serious, they kind of. You kind of have to, um. That's kind of a burden. Yeah. I sometimes wondered if some students should have just kind of not just gone and done something a little different. Because what do we do? Yeah.

Martin (01:43:37 --> 01:43:55)
Well, and also you don't. If you want to learn more about writing, that's great. You don't need an MFA to do it. Yeah. Go to any bookstore and say, hey, I'd like to learn more about writing. Can you show me where your craft books are? Go pick up on Writing by Stephen King, Sandra Schofield's the Last Draft.

Sam (01:43:55 --> 01:44:02)
Yeah. Writing fiction. Book on, um. Writing fiction is awesome. It's like a swim in the pond in the rain. That's my best plug.

Martin (01:44:02 --> 01:44:42)
Yeah, do that. Because, Martin, you've got a good point where, like, you know, unless you're. You have the cash or unless you're willing and able to swallow that student loan debt, it's a barrier. And that, that, I mean, don't get me on my soapbox about how higher ed financial. The financial barriers of higher ed. But you've got a great point. Like, you don't have to get an MFA to enhance your craft. Go buy a craft book, go to the bookstore and say, these are my three favorite authors. Can you recommend more authors similar to them? Read all their books.

Sam (01:44:43 --> 01:44:45)
My biggest advice is go live.

Martin (01:44:45 --> 01:44:46)
Go live a good life.

Dustin (01:44:46 --> 01:44:47)
Go live.

Sam (01:44:47 --> 01:45:10)
There's like a famous quote by. I can't remember who it was. It was like, go be a prison guard. Go fishing in China. Like, you know, live your life.

Uh, you know, Hemingway wrote about war. You know, fucking guy got shot at. Tell me about that. That shit's rich. So, yeah, if you could get an MFA or live deeply.

Martin (01:45:10 --> 01:45:14)
Do the Tim McGraw song live like you're dying. Go skydiving.

Dustin (01:45:14 --> 01:45:19)
Or is it that James Hetfield said, choose to live, not exist? That's exactly what it is.

Sam (01:45:19 --> 01:45:34)
Martin. Uh, before we wrap up, it occurs to me that you might have some other things rattling around inside you that you want to say about MFAs. M. If you want to do it, let's. Let's go. Like, what other things have you been thinking about that you've always wanted to say?

Dustin (01:45:36 --> 01:46:59)
First off, and I kick myself for this, I think as an educator, you've got to be. And I was kind of hinting at this earlier. Sometimes we just need to be able to look at students and be like, why are you here wasting your time? You're wasting. And I've had this happen in composition classes.

I've had people that have been in college that don't want to be there, have no business being there. And I've told them, I said, look, if you're not invested in this, go do something else. I have. Do not begrudge you. And it's an argument that I've had in higher education.

Every profession is important. You don't have to be in a classroom and get a college degree in order to add value to society or to learn. And when you take these MFA programs and you want to root them in quote, unquote, social justice, and you want to root them, and let's try to find a way to both milk as much money out of the students as we can and have diversity for the sake of diversity. And it was bad at our program there for a while. It was bad.

And it was celebrated how, quote, unquote, diverse. It was. Well, it was diversity for the sake of being diversity. If that's the bedrock of your program, your program's gonna be gone in 10 years. Focus needs to be on the craft, and everything else will come.

Sam (01:47:00 --> 01:47:02)
I think we can leave it there. Unless you have something else to say, Sam.

Martin (01:47:03 --> 01:47:10)
No, I'm gonna take my own advice, and I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna talk just to hear myself talk. Shut it down.

Sam (01:47:10 --> 01:47:25)
You guys are awesome. Um, thank you for coming on to talk about this topic. I kind of felt like we could go for another three hours. It's just a lot there, you know. Sam Cooke, Martin Smith, thank you so much for coming on.

Martin (01:47:25 --> 01:47:27)
Thanks, Dustin. Bye, Martin.

Sam (01:47:27 --> 01:47:27)
Bye.

Dustin (01:47:27 --> 01:47:28)
I'll talk to you guys soon.

Martin (01:47:28 --> 01:47:31)
Okay, see ya. Uh, see you soon.

Dustin (01:47:31 --> 01:47:31)
Bye.

Martin (01:47:31 --> 01:47:33)
Okay, bye.

Sam (01:47:39 --> 01:48:09)
Thanks for listening to this episode of Curiously. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Sam Cooke and Martin Smith. If you enjoyed this episode, consider sharing it and starting a conversation of your own. If you've got a minute, I've got a new survey up and I'd love your feedback on the show. Just head to curiouslypod.com survey.

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